Export Power via Solar Inverter DIY

[Maquis]

Because you don't get any V2x capabilities without an onboard inverter, including no 120v in the vehicle. That should be present on every EV. I won't buy another EV / Hybrid without native 120v 20a capabilities at a minimum.

Every electric and hybrid F150 have V2L. Cybertruck, GM, and RAM E-trucks all have V2x native including V2V and V2L capabilities. You don't get those without an onboard inverter. GM's poor version only supports 6kW V2V. 10kW should be the floor IMO. My F150 outputs 7.6kW peak. 10kW is a great spot to shoot for given most EVs can take 10kW AC charging at a minimum (42 amps).

The same thing happens functionally no matter where the inverter is located. There’s no reason to buy a new inverter with every car (and add the weight to the vehicle) when one installed in the home will outlast several cars.

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[Hammered]

The same thing happens functionally no matter where the inverter is located. There’s no reason to buy a new inverter with every car (and add the weight to the vehicle) when one installed in the home will outlast several cars.

The OBCC would have the inverter integrated into it, replacing discrete inverters.

Again, you're missing the point, you can't have V2x without an inverter, but you'd rather buy a dedicated discrete setup for your home in addition to the V2x capabilities that will already be on the vehicle. Certainly you understand how little sense that makes. The OBCC is a rectifier / voltage step up device that can be made to share components for both tasks for less cost than 2 discrete components.

I don't see it being outside of the realm of possibility to incorporate one of the motor's inverters into the package as well making it cost less than the OBCC and traction inverter's combined costs. Such a device if sticking with 42a V2x capabilities, could end up allowing V2V at 16kW or better by allowing pack voltage at 42 amps. A variant of this is what allows 800v architectures to charge on 400v chargers. I wouldn't be surprised to see this come to fruition very soon.

The only addition would need to be for a small discrete 120v (or 240v for rest of the world) discrete inverter circuit within this package to allow for in cabin AC power under way.

 

[dtbaker61]

...you're missing the point, you can't have V2x without an inverter, but you'd rather buy a dedicated discrete setup for your home...

not missing the point at all.... since our MMEs do not have a grid-forming high output split-phase inverter on board (like the f-150), the most practical solution in my view is to have a small (1500 watt) 12vDC->120vAC inverter exporting from the MME to 'whatever' load you want. Which could be:

1. direct 120vAC loads up to 1500watts

2. exporting 12vDC paralleled to a larger external 12v battery to support larger inverter for larger 120v/240v loads. There are inexpensive pure-sine inverters up to about 6000watts that run on 12v battery packs, but you'd need that external battery to be big enough to stand up to bigger loads without big voltage drop when under heavy loads. 4 kWhr or more in my experience....

3. exporting 12vDC to 1500 watt 120vAC inverter -> 120vAC -> 48v (1200watt output) charger to slow-charge a 48v battery when solar is not available running an inverter to run big loads (6kw +).

This V2X implimentation is totally possible TODAY with existing MMEs and off-the shelf equipment; and, is a workable way to use an EV to 'store and deliver' energy from some other location to run your home at night or during grid outages. The beauty is being able to configure a system capable of running big loads with a relatively small (inexpensive) battery knowing that you have access to your MME energy as 'backup'.

It would be really nice to export high voltage DC directly thru CSS, but that interface packaged up with communication is probably a couple years off....

as the OP is experimenting with, exporting HV via the heater or ac connection and sending it to a hybrid grid forming split phase inverter is also a possibility... but requires a custom connector, and a little higher risk in dealing with 400+vDC rather than 12-48vDC.

 

[Hammered]

not missing the point at all.... since our MMEs do not have a grid-forming high output split-phase inverter on board (like the f-150), the most practical solution in my view is to have a small (1500 watt) 12vDC->120vAC inverter exporting from the MME to 'whatever' load you want. Which could be:

1. direct 120vAC loads up to 1500watts

2. exporting 12vDC paralleled to a larger external 12v battery to support larger inverter for larger 120v/240v loads. There are inexpensive pure-sine inverters up to about 6000watts that run on 12v battery packs, but you'd need that external battery to be big enough to stand up to bigger loads without big voltage drop when under heavy loads. 4 kWhr or more in my experience....

3. exporting 12vDC to 1500 watt 120vAC inverter -> 120vAC -> 48v (1200watt output) charger to slow-charge a 48v battery when solar is not available running an inverter to run big loads (6kw +).

This V2X implimentation is totally possible TODAY with existing MMEs and off-the shelf equipment; and, is a workable way to use an EV to 'store and deliver' energy from some other location to run your home at night or during grid outages. The beauty is being able to configure a system capable of running big loads with a relatively small (inexpensive) battery knowing that you have access to your MME energy as 'backup'.

It would be really nice to export high voltage DC directly thru CSS, but that interface packaged up with communication is probably a couple years off....

as the OP is experimenting with, exporting HV via the heater or ac connection and sending it to a hybrid grid forming split phase inverter is also a possibility... but requires a custom connector, and a little higher risk in dealing with 400+vDC rather than 12-48vDC.

There's no reason the F150's ability to engage its HVDC contacts to power an inverter couldn't be programmed into the MME. There's nothing special about it outside of the programming. Taken a step further, why could it not be opened up to owners via a 1 time 'warranty' covering charge that's already baked into the lightning's price. Being able to on-demand energize the DCFC ports would be handy.

Now look 2 years into the future, why couldn't a customer buy a new OBCC that enables NACS and some form of V2x compatibility. Same foot print, "bolt's" right in like replacing the OBCC, but includes the hardware needed to swap the port over as well. Ford needs a quick edge with the MME, and giving it V2x capability could do it.

This thing has a massive footprint....

 

[i8iridium]

There's no reason the F150's ability to engage its HVDC contacts to power an inverter couldn't be programmed into the MME. There's nothing special about it outside of the programming. Taken a step further, why could it not be opened up to owners via a 1 time 'warranty' covering charge that's already baked into the lightning's price. Being able to on-demand energize the DCFC ports would be handy.

Now look 2 years into the future, why couldn't a customer buy a new OBCC that enables NACS and some form of V2x compatibility. Same foot print, "bolt's" right in like replacing the OBCC, but includes the hardware needed to swap the port over as well. Ford needs a quick edge with the MME, and giving it V2x capability could do it.

This thing has a massive footprint....

I can sum most of your post up into these words... Planned obsolescence.

 

[dtbaker61]

There's no reason the F150's ability to engage its HVDC contacts to power an inverter couldn't be programmed into the MME. There's nothing special about it outside of the programming. Taken a step further, why could it not be opened up to owners via a 1 time 'warranty' covering charge that's already baked into the lightning's price. Being able to on-demand energize the DCFC ports would be handy.

Now look 2 years into the future, why couldn't a customer buy a new OBCC that enables NACS and some form of V2x compatibility. Same foot print, "bolt's" right in like replacing the OBCC, but includes the hardware needed to swap the port over as well. Ford needs a quick edge with the MME, and giving it V2x capability could do it.

This thing has a massive footprint....

Sure Ford *could* and *may* enable MME V2X export in the future..... this thread is about how to do it NOW with our existing MME.

 

[cknasaboy]

This is such a cool project - I’ve been considering getting an EcoFlow or Anker battery system for use with a transfer case, and it’s always bothered me I couldn’t just use the 91 kWh of energy already sitting in my garage!

Thanks for sharing!

 

[i8iridium]

This is such a cool project - I’ve been considering getting an EcoFlow or Anker battery system for use with a transfer case, and it’s always bothered me I couldn’t just use the 91 kWh of energy already sitting in my garage!

Thanks for sharing!

I actually have a pair of Ecoflow delta Pro that can run the house as well. I love it and it’s nice to have options.

 

[Hammered]

I can sum most of your post up into these words... Planned obsolescence.

That's tesla's plan with incumbent auto ?

Ford needs to up their game going proactive vs reactive. Tesla price drops have all but ended MME sales as the pricing isn't remotely competitive. They've also started on a highland M.3 performance using the plaid motors putting it in the 700hp class (using 2 vs 3)

This is such a cool project - I’ve been considering getting an EcoFlow or Anker battery system for use with a transfer case, and it’s always bothered me I couldn’t just use the 91 kWh of energy already sitting in my garage!

Thanks for sharing!

If you want to build your own you can far exceed what the boxed solutions can do for less than half the price. For $3k you can build a 15kWh battery connected to a 6kW inverter (connects up to 2 solar arrays, plugs into a wall or hard wires) on a small harbor freight roller cart. You can go 120v, 240v, or split phase 120/240v inverter with it.

 

[ohmslaw]

Be careful with this. Anything that pulls from the high voltage battery that doesn't report back to the VCU may cause incorrect battery level calculations.

Lithium battery capacity is all estimation (until fully charged). A combination of factors (no load voltage, Coulomb counting etc) are used to determine battery percentage.

If Ford is using data from loads to Coulomb count for battery percentage calculation you may potentially throw off battery capacity calculation until you fully charge again.

I highly doubt they are doing this; you usually do the calculations as close to battery terminals as possible (with a shunt or other no contact methods).


Has anyone sniffed any canbus traffic to see if a possible can injection attack would be possible to close contactors to the CCS pins while not charging?

 

[i8iridium]

Be careful with this. Anything that pulls from the high voltage battery that doesn't report back to the VCU may cause incorrect battery level calculations.

Lithium battery capacity is all estimation (until fully charged). A combination of factors (no load voltage, Coulomb counting etc) are used to determine battery percentage.

If Ford is using data from loads to Coulomb count for battery percentage calculation you may potentially throw off battery capacity calculation until you fully charge again.

I highly doubt they are doing this; you usually do the calculations as close to battery terminals as possible (with a shunt or other no contact methods).


Has anyone sniffed any canbus traffic to see if a possible can injection attack would be possible to close contactors to the CCS pins while not charging?

It's reported as if the heater or air conditioner is being used. That even shows up as accessories on the center screen. The car accounts for that via the Battery Energy Control Module. That's what is tracking power in and out of the pack.

 

[Mach-Lee]

Be careful with this. Anything that pulls from the high voltage battery that doesn't report back to the VCU may cause incorrect battery level calculations.

Lithium battery capacity is all estimation (until fully charged). A combination of factors (no load voltage, Coulomb counting etc) are used to determine battery percentage.

If Ford is using data from loads to Coulomb count for battery percentage calculation you may potentially throw off battery capacity calculation until you fully charge again.

I highly doubt they are doing this; you usually do the calculations as close to battery terminals as possible (with a shunt or other no contact methods).

The BMS current sensor is inside the battery, so his connection would not bypass or affect the BMS. No issues with that, the energy used will be measured.

 

[Kaskaskia 309]

Hold on everyone!
If you are using ANYTHING to backfeed your home panel you need a transfer switch to prevent power flowing into the utility grid!!!! Killing someone working to restore power in a storm, is no joke. Call a licensed electrician to at least look at the home panel connection.

And no, opening the main breaker is NOT good enough.​

 

[mkhuffman]

Hold on everyone!
If you are using ANYTHING to backfeed your home panel you need a transfer switch to prevent power flowing into the utility grid!!!! Killing someone working to restore power in a storm, is no joke. Call a licensed electrician to at least look at the home panel connection.
And no, opening the main breaker is NOT good enough.

Why is opening the main breaker not good enough?

 

[Maquis]

Why is opening the main breaker not good enough?

Because it’s not idiot-proof. A transfer switch or breaker interlock makes it physically impossible to backfeed the grid no matter who does (or forgets to do) anything.

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