Electrician coming on monday to install 220v outlet.....your thoughts

[HughJazzol]

Myself, my sister's house, and my parents house all have 220 outlets that are mid way into the garage. In all 3 locations we can charge a car inside or outside with our cable. Could save you an outlet if if can be reached from either area. For my house I bought a dedicated EVSE with a 25 ft cable so I could charge in our out.

i thought about your solution as well, but isn't it bad/wrong to have the garage door close on the cable? And what about the gap under the door left by the relatively-thick cable?

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[MacherAWD]

i thought about your solution as well, but isn't it bad/wrong to have the garage door close on the cable? And what about the gap under the door left by the relatively-thick cable?

I think that depends on the cable and the bottom of the garage, if old and heavy maybe bad, but if it has a thicker rubber bottom probably fine? In my case I almost never charge outside, and if I do I have to leave the door open. I installed my EVSE when I had a Leaf with nose charging so its easy outside. With the Mach-e and Bolt and side ports the cable hangs to make the stretch.

 

[HuntingPudel]

i thought about your solution as well, but isn't it bad/wrong to have the garage door close on the cable? And what about the gap under the door left by the relatively-thick cable?

My EVSE is installed on the inside of the garage front wall. When I charge my car on the driveway, the cable fits nicely into the gap between the slabs and the bottom of the garage door. I just need to make sure I align the cable before closing the door (not hard since the gap is nicely shaped for that). ??

 

[RWG]

Regarding a 60 Amp Breaker. You can certainly put in a bigger than 50 Amp breaker but it will not charge faster. I believe the charging system maxes out at 48 Amps. Also the conventional wisdom is to not charge the max because it shortens battery life. (Lithium based batteries don't like repeated fast charging or high heat.) I read that you are considering putting in an outdoor charger as well as one in the garage. Not sure why, we have the charger installed in the garage for over 2 years. Works just fine, my concern with and outdoor charger is the ambient temps. I routinely check electrical system component temps. because things can go wrong, i.e. thermal cycling can cause connections can loosen and fail, even if everything was done by a professional electrician. HIgh voltage/high amperage connections can fail it happens all the time in commercial electrical systems. Checking connection temps, under load, is a routine preventive procedure. All it takes is the purchase of an infrared digital temp gauge and a little time a few times a year.

In my charger installation I put in a Nema 1450 outlet and put Nema 1450 plug on the charger. That why, if the charger failed, I could just plug in the charger that came with the car. So far, so good, no issues. However, after over 2 years and dozens of temp checks, it appears, all of the components warm up about 20 to 30 degrees over ambient temps, which seems to be just fine. If you put a charger outside, in direct sunlight, on a 99 degree day, your charging cables could easily reach 140 degrees or more, which is too hot to touch plus you have exposed the cables to the negative long term effects of UV light. So if you put it out-side, it might b a good idea to limit direct sun light exposure.

Attached you will find a report I put together regarding the my charger installation and temp testing. So far, after over 2 years and dozens of charge episodes, no problems but everything heats up a bit which is normal during a charge sessions, and sometimes, the vehicle shutters open and the fan runs, presumably to cool the batteries. For us our setup works fine, lots of short trips around town, when the battery gets below 50% we plug it in, at the end of the day, we have the system set to 85% charge with a 35 amp draw limit, and always next day it is fully charged and ready to go.


Good luck

 

[shelnian]

An EV charger outlet requires a GFCI breaker, which can cause nuisance tripping when used with an EV charger. Hardwiring avoids this issue so is the method recommended by almost all EV chargers.
Have you looked into this program? It may not be for you since you don't commute, but worth a look.

 

[kltye]

Good morning all
I've owned my MME 17 days, and the passenger door has a ding in it!!! I am pissed. It was inevitable, of course, but I haven't owned it a fortnite. I still have the dealer plate!!! Thanks for listening.

I work from home and drive very little, so so far, my 110v travel charger has been enough. However, I want to give myself the option of having 220v if needed.
He will install two 220v outlets from a 50amp breaker, one inside the garage and one outside. I have 2 neighbors that have used their travel chargers for a year as their daily method, and it's worked fine, so I will take that route for now.

However, I'm thinking of asking the electrician to put in a 60amp breaker so that I have room for future expansion to a dedicated charger. If I've read correctly, the MME has a maximum amperage draw of 48 amps from a charger, so limiting me to 50 amps today is a dumb step.

I'm not looking for ideas on a wall charger, since there are plenty of threads on that. I simply ask if my thinking of getting the 60 breaker makes sense. I imagine that it will be more expensive than the 50a since 60a will probably require thicker gauge cabling.

Thank you

I'm not sure what the cost difference is between the wiring needed for a 60A vs 50A circuit, or installing one or two circuits from your load center. My personal philosophy is "buy once, cry once", especially if the price difference isn't great. 300A service makes it sound like you have a pretty big house and an equivalently large panel, so I would just install two 60A circuits and call it a day. No reason to worry about future upgrades and/or utilizing both circuits at the same time.

 

[HughJazzol]

An EV charger outlet requires a GFCI breaker, which can cause nuisance tripping when used with an EV charger. Hardwiring avoids this issue so is the method recommended by almost all EV chargers.
Have you looked into this program? It may not be for you since you don't commute, but worth a look.

thanks Ian
Yes I did, and it doesn't make financial sense to me. They charge $38 a month for unlimited charging and install the charger for "free", with a 10 year commitment - too long.

Regarding a 60 Amp Breaker. You can certainly put in a bigger than 50 Amp breaker but it will not charge faster. I believe the charging system maxes out at 48 Amps.

Good luck

thank you Randal. My thought for asking for the 60a breaker is to allow me room for future growth or a hardwired charger that may ask for a bigger breaker. Plus, if the limit of the system is 48 amps at full load, having a 50a breaker seems too close, no?

 

[HughJazzol]

I'm not sure what the cost difference is between the wiring needed for a 60A vs 50A circuit, or installing one or two circuits from your load center. My personal philosophy is "buy once, cry once", especially if the price difference isn't great. 300A service makes it sound like you have a pretty big house and an equivalently large panel, so I would just install two 60A circuits and call it a day. No reason to worry about future upgrades and/or utilizing both circuits at the same time.

well said K, and I get your point. Don't let the 300 amps fool you on house size.

I previously had 250 amps, and we added a gazebo in 2016. This gazebo has 6 led lights, 2 fans, and a small fridge, but, for some reason, the engineer of the project decided that we need 50 more amps "for code reasons". So my main panel looks like something industrial along the side of a Best Buy, and I have room for 20 more breakers or so. Unfortunately, the subpanel in the garage is the crowded one that controls the house circuits, and this charger will come from that panel which only has room for 1 more breaker.
From the huge main panel, or "coffin" as I call it, to the front of the house is quite a long route that I don't want to take with tubing, etc.

 

[kltye]

well said K, and I get your point. Don't let the 300 amps fool you on house size.

I previously had 250 amps, and we added a gazebo in 2016. This gazebo has 6 led lights, 2 fans, and a small fridge, but, for some reason, the engineer of the project decided that we need 50 more amps "for code reasons". So my main panel looks like something industrial along the side of a Best Buy, and I have room for 20 more breakers or so. Unfortunately, the subpanel in the garage is the crowded one that controls the house circuits, and this charger will come from that panel which only has room for 1 more breaker.
From the huge main panel, or "coffin" as I call it, to the front of the house is quite a long route that I don't want to take with tubing, etc.

Gotcha. 250A is/was still quite a bit; most here only have 200A, with 100A still being common. Either way, that does suck that your subpanel is full. Also, responding to the previous post, a 50A breaker is not going to be sufficient for a 48A constant load; the electrician should warn you about that. Since you're thinking of adding two outlets to a single circuit anyway (if code/electrician allows for that), I'd just go with a 60A circuit. That way, at least you could run two constant loads at 24A each at the same time.

Lots of people are going to yell at me for that advice (the whole you need to run two separate circuits for each load thing), but I'd rather have you be safe and give you the most headroom if you're going to run two 240v outlets on the same circuit anyway

 

[Maquis]

An EV charger outlet requires a GFCI breaker, which can cause nuisance tripping when used with an EV charger.

The requirement for all EVSE outlets (including hard-wired) to be GFCI-protected is currently proposed for the 2026 NEC. That’s not a current requirement.
2023 NEC requires outdoor outlets (including hard-wired) 50A or less to be GFCI-protected.
Prior to that, only certain receptacle outlets require GFCI.
The whole thing is a mess, quite frankly.

 

[kltye]

The requirement for all EVSE outlets (including hard-wired) to be GFCI-protected is currently proposed for the 2026 NEC. That’s not a current requirement.
2023 NEC requires outdoor outlets (including hard-wired) 50A or less to be GFCI-protected.
Prior to that, only certain receptacle outlets require GFCI.
The whole thing is a mess, quite frankly.

I'm confused about the GFCI requirement - don't EVSEs currently have built-in GFCIs? I'm also under the impression that hooking up a GFCI protected piece of equipment to a GFCI outlet/breaker will cause nuisance trips - am I wrong about that?

 

[HughJazzol]

An update after speaking to the electrician with my wishes.

His plan all along was to install the wiring for a 60a breaker, which is good. He will leave a 50 amp breaker since that's what the mobile charger calls for and to have the corresponding protection from the breaker; installing a 60a breaker now, would leave the circuit unprotected in case of a fault or something.
If I wish to install a wall charger in the future, I will only have to change the breaker.

I like the plan.

 

[Maquis]

I'm confused about the GFCI requirement - don't EVSEs currently have built-in GFCIs? I'm also under the impression that hooking up a GFCI protected piece of equipment to a GFCI outlet/breaker will cause nuisance trips - am I wrong about that?

EVSEs incorporate a GFCI with a 20ma trip level. The NEC requires class A GFCIs (5 ma trip level).

Properly-designed GFCIs in cascade do not nuisance trip. Think about bathroom GFCI receptacles and blow dryers with GFCI in the plug - they work fine. When an EVSE trips a GFCI, it’s most likely due to the way the ground sensing circuit is designed, not its internal GFCI.

 

[tuminatr]

An update after speaking to the electrician with my wishes.

His plan all along was to install the wiring for a 60a breaker, which is good. He will leave a 50 amp breaker since that's what the mobile charger calls for and to have the corresponding protection from the breaker; installing a 60a breaker now, would leave the circuit unprotected in case of a fault or something.
If I wish to install a wall charger in the future, I will only have to change the breaker.

I like the plan.

To clarify are you going to use the Ford supplied EVSE or buy and mount an EVSE? I would advise to you to buy and mount one because the largest point of failure in this type of circuit is the 14-50 plug its simply not designed to be plugged and unplugged a lot.

With a second cavoite I don't believe the Ford portable EVSE was actually designed for daily usage.

 

[HughJazzol]

To clarify are you going to use the Ford supplied EVSE or buy and mount an EVSE? I would advise to you to buy and mount one because the largest point of failure in this type of circuit is the 14-50 plug its simply not designed to be plugged and unplugged a lot.

With a second cavoite I don't believe the Ford portable EVSE was actually designed for daily usage.

Thank you Tum

My plan is to use the travel charger in either outlet. For the majority of the time, it will remain plugged in and used in the garage outlet since I work from home. Two neighbors have done this for a year, and it has worked fine.
I'll have the outside outlet as an option should it be needed.

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