silverelan

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I kind of doubt Ford is "hiding" 4 kwh when 88 usable kwh is all over their marketing. I'm not a lawyer but that would be a pretty clear case of false advertising I would think.
Naw, it's probably to be released later. I think Bjorn's math checks out. Our biggest confirmation is if Ford doesn't deny it.





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timbop

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Naw, it's probably to be released later. I think Bjorn's math checks out. Our biggest confirmation is if Ford doesn't deny it.
there are only a few possibilities, in order of likelihood:
  1. The metrics he used to do the math are off a bit due to a bug or other unknown factor
  2. His math is wrong
  3. Ford's engineers, marketing folks, legal, team and everyone else associated with the project don't know how much battery is actually available
  4. Ford's engineers, marketing folks, legal, team and everyone else associated with the project knowingly committed fraud, including the test reports they submitted to the EPA

Can you please stop posting EVERYWHERE that the battery is not 88kwh with zero reliable evidence. That's how you get people to believe the moon landings were faked and that vaccines are more dangerous than fatal diseases.
 

silverelan

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there are only a few possibilities, in order of likelihood:
  1. The metrics he used to do the math are off a bit due to a bug or other unknown factor
  2. His math is wrong
  3. Ford's engineers, marketing folks, legal, team and everyone else associated with the project don't know how much battery is actually available
  4. Ford's engineers, marketing folks, legal, team and everyone else associated with the project knowingly committed fraud, including the test reports they submitted to the EPA

Can you please stop posting EVERYWHERE that the battery is not 88kwh with zero reliable evidence. That's how you get people to believe the moon landings were faked and that vaccines are more dangerous than fatal diseases.
Bjorn Nyland is a heckuva source.

Congrats again on your new car! I'd be interested if you ever end up doing some range testing yourself and seeing if your car's numbers agree or disagree with Bjorn's.
 

timbop

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Bjorn Nyland is a heckuva source.

Congrats again on your new car! I'd be interested if you ever end up doing some range testing yourself and seeing if your car's numbers agree or disagree with Bjorn's.
Yes, he's a heckuva source for lots of things - but the extent to which he precisely measured the battery capacity in the conditions and with the tools at his disposal at the time simply aren't good enough to go running around saying Ford is lying about the actual usable battery capacity. For all we know there's a bug in the guess-o-meter/reportage of actual battery capacity remaining. It may intentionally underreport the charge left under a certain level in order to compel people not to push it. I've driven ICE's well below the "E"; can Bjorn say for certain what the ACTUAL power was left in those cells? Or can he just rely on what the car is telling him, which could be incorrect?

Neither he nor you can say for certain what the case is based on the evidence presented. Nor can I unless I push it until it won't go anymore, and I am NOT going to do that.
 
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ajmartineau

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What or how has Ford defined useable? Is it from 100% to...
1. when the car stops moved under its own power?
2. when it reaches 0%?
3. when it goings into turtle mode? (under 60 mph)
4. when it goes into limp mode? (under 20mph)
5. when it stops giving use range/percentages and say CHARGE NOW DUMB A$$! (nanny mode)

I'm sure we all have a different definition of this. Mine would be 100% to turtle (can't do 60 on a flat) mode. It seems every manufacturer treats the bottom of the battery differently. I've seen many cars go big miles after 0% (on YouTube), and some die before they see 1%.

It's the same as that reserve on your ICE car, some are 1/3 gallon some are 2.5 gallons. I don't miss my Jeep I couldn't drive up my super-steep road home when I was near empty, because of where the fuel pick-up was.
 

silverelan

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Yes, he's a heckuva source for lots of things - but the extent to which he precisely measured the battery capacity in the conditions and with the tools at his disposal at the time simply aren't good enough to go running around saying Ford is lying about the actual usable battery capacity. For all we know there's a bug in the guess-o-meter/reportage of actual battery capacity remaining. It may intentionally underreport the charge left under a certain level in order to compel people not to push it. I've driven ICE's well below the "E"; can Bjorn say for certain what the ACTUAL power was left in those cells? Or can he just rely on what the car is telling him, which could be incorrect?

Neither he nor you can say for certain what the case is based on the evidence presented. Nor can I unless I push it until it won't go anymore, and I am NOT going to do that.
You jump to "fraud" and "lying" really quick. Bjorn says his findings are that the car is showing like 84-85kWh, not 88kWh. Maybe Bjorn's calculations are off but maybe they're not. Doesn't mean Ford is committing fraud or lying. Just means that they've potentially walled off more of the pack if Bjorn's work is correct. If true, I'm curious about if there's additional capacity squirreled away.
 

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I'm not trying to start a mob on Ford or anything but if the usable kwh is less than what they very clearly advertised yes that is lying.
 

silverelan

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I'm not trying to start a mob on Ford or anything but if the usable kwh is less than what they very clearly advertised yes that is lying.
I dunno about that. Like @ajmartineau says, it depends on Ford's definition of usable. Like, maybe there's a minor safety buffer at the bottom beyond 0%? I'd much rather have that than the car put me and my family at risk going into turtle mode at 5% SoC.
 

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OK yeah I agree if it's just a matter of a buffer past empty and the car will keep moving that's fine if maybe a little annoying.
 

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The MME is going to be a conundrum. On the one hand it is such a fantastic cruiser you will want to take it on long drives. On the other hand, the MME, like every other BEV that charges at 400v, isn't going to cut it for long road trips where you need to get from A to B as quickly as possible.

In truth the same can be said for all BEVs that can't charge at 800v. You can argue all day long about which of the BEVs that charge at 400v is better on a road trip, but at the end of the day you're just arguing about which deserves to be crowned "Queen of the Pigs". They all suck, and it's just a question of which one sucks a little more or less than the others.

there are only a few possibilities, in order of likelihood:
Another possibility is that the MME he is testing has less than average capacity. I have no doubt that "on average" the MME has 88 kWh of capacity. However some MME will have more. Some less. That's just how it works with batteries.

That said, 4 kWh would be too much variation.

Bjorn Nyland is a heckuva source.
He's a heckuva source if you like his form of entertainment. I personally don't, and in fact have never been able to watch more than a minute or two of his videos before getting tired of his schtick. Basically a terrible source of useful information and boring as hell. Obviously YMMV.
 

phidauex

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As an engineer who designs very large scale battery systems, I'd caution against following the SOC % numbers too precisely and using that to make judgements about the usable capacity. The SOC % is another form of guess-o-meter built into the BMS, and it uses a combination of cell voltage, temperature, current, and coulombs passed through a sensor in order to guess at the current SOC.

SOC is sensitive to a lot of factors - voltage is higher during charging and lower during discharging for the same SOC, it varies with temperature, and the coulomb counter only has so much accuracy. There are at least three forms of energy loss in a lithium ion battery during charging and discharging, all of which are non-linear in different ways.

The only way to truly test a battery's capacity is to go from true 0% to true 100% twice, and then to use the second discharge cycle to count your capacity. If you aren't doing that, then you are just making an educated guess about the current SOC %.

Another point to consider is that the capacity of a battery is temperature sensitive, and C-rate sensitive. If you imagine pouring beer into a 16 oz glass, if you pour quickly, you'll get 12oz of beer and 4oz of foam. If you pour slowly you'll get 16 oz of beer. Same glass, same beer. Faster charging puts less total energy into the battery (your "100%" is lower than the 100% of a slower charge cycle). So in some cases 0-100% may be slightly more or less than 88 kWhs, without being out of spec or deceptive.

Once more nerds get their cars we can instrument a bit more and do some more detailed checks, but for now, we mostly have to trust LGChem and Ford at their word. I'm actually very happy with the large hold-backs - that is how you make batteries last a long time (10-25 years).
 

silverelan

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As an engineer who designs very large scale battery systems, I'd caution against following the SOC % numbers too precisely and using that to make judgements about the usable capacity. The SOC % is another form of guess-o-meter built into the BMS, and it uses a combination of cell voltage, temperature, current, and coulombs passed through a sensor in order to guess at the current SOC.

SOC is sensitive to a lot of factors - voltage is higher during charging and lower during discharging for the same SOC, it varies with temperature, and the coulomb counter only has so much accuracy. There are at least three forms of energy loss in a lithium ion battery during charging and discharging, all of which are non-linear in different ways.

The only way to truly test a battery's capacity is to go from true 0% to true 100% twice, and then to use the second discharge cycle to count your capacity. If you aren't doing that, then you are just making an educated guess about the current SOC %.

Another point to consider is that the capacity of a battery is temperature sensitive, and C-rate sensitive. If you imagine pouring beer into a 16 oz glass, if you pour quickly, you'll get 12oz of beer and 4oz of foam. If you pour slowly you'll get 16 oz of beer. Same glass, same beer. Faster charging puts less total energy into the battery (your "100%" is lower than the 100% of a slower charge cycle). So in some cases 0-100% may be slightly more or less than 88 kWhs, without being out of spec or deceptive.

Once more nerds get their cars we can instrument a bit more and do some more detailed checks, but for now, we mostly have to trust LGChem and Ford at their word. I'm actually very happy with the large hold-backs - that is how you make batteries last a long time (10-25 years).
As conservative as Ford is being with the MME and the amount of engineering they put into it, it's clear there's quite a bit of margin built into it.

What a great week for finding out info! Bjorn's range tests in the absolute worst conditions with frozen rain and slush on the roads in below freezing temps + Alex on Autos doing a range test in moderate temps with dry roads. Super jazzed!
 

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As conservative as Ford is being with the MME and the amount of engineering they put into it, it's clear there's quite a bit of margin built into it.

What a great week for finding out info! Bjorn's range tests in the absolute worst conditions with frozen rain and slush on the roads in below freezing temps + Alex on Autos doing a range test in moderate temps with dry roads. Super jazzed!
I will take margins to protect and open up more later than not enough left to fix an issue if it ever comes up. Never show your hand to start.
 

BlueMach

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Never show your hand to start.
Unless, of course, you want your customers to find you trustworthy and know what they're buying. Then show your hand to start. Holding things back from us just makes us suspicious.
 

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