Build Back Better Fails

[frontrunner]

This is just dumb. Apple makes plenty of products that are very competitive in the market. iPhone 13 Pro Max is a gap better than the Samsung Galaxy S21 in multiple aspects like battery life, GPU / CPU power, etc and trade blows every where else.

True, but Tesla is not better in all aspects. There's the significant build quality and delivery issues that many buyers are having. It's not an apples to apples comparison, no pun intended.

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[Mirak]

Rumblings are that BBB is not dead and that the Joes might be able to patch things up after the winter break. But this could just be wishful advocacy by the corporate media. Judging by the vitriol coming from other Dem politicians, that doesn’t sound like they think Manchin can still be courted.

 

[yngwenli]

Rumblings are that BBB is not dead and that the Joes might be able to patch things up after the winter break. But this could just be wishful advocacy by the corporate media. Judging by the vitriol coming from other Dem politicians, that doesn’t sound like they think Manchin can still be courted.

I think what's a fairly certain thing is the BBB will need to change for Manchin's support. What that is right now is unknown. Keep the child tax credit which is a red line for a lot of progressives and remove what? EV credits? Solar extensions/credits, backdoor Roths? Tax deductibility of sales/state income taxes?

It's too wide open to know what will be cut to get it passed so anything now is just a wild guess.

 

[Mirak]

I think what's a fairly certain thing is the BBB will need to change for Manchin's support. What that is right now is unknown. Keep the child tax credit which is a red line for a lot of progressives and remove what? EV credits? Solar extensions/credits, backdoor Roths? Tax deductibility of sales/state income taxes?

It's too wide open to know what will be cut to get it passed so anything now is just a wild guess.

Continuing the expanded child tax credit at $3,000/3,600, making it fully refundable, and making that permanent (as opposed to the BBB's fiction of sunsetting it after one more year) would cost $1.6 trillion over 10 years and crowd out pretty much all the other spending initiatives in the bill (well, unless you actually want to spend $4-5 trillion, which Manchin is dead set against).

They could dramatically reduce the cost of the CTC, while still making it permanent, by "reducing" it back to the current $2,000 level (which was set to expire and revert back to $1,400 in 2025 anyway) and making it only partially refundable. The current structure is literally direct cash payments regardless of tax liability - it's a toe in the water for Universal Basic Income, made possible as with all recent expansion of government and welfare programs "because Covid."

The CTC is the single biggest piece of the spending pie. Other pieces would also need to be scaled back, but it's all doable. It's pretty funny that the Dems are so entrenched with their base that they can't make a deal with Joe Manchin to at least get something.

I'm not opining as to the wisdom of any of this, btw, just pointing out that the math provides plenty of room for compromise, but maybe the politics don't.

 

[Tangible]

Continuing the expanded child tax credit at $3,000/3,600, making it fully refundable, and making that permanent (as opposed to the BBB's fiction of sunsetting it after one more year) would cost $1.6 trillion over 10 years...

To put that in perspective, the Defense bill, which passed without any drama a few weeks ago, will cost $7.3 trillion over the next 10 years if we continue at the FY2022 rate. I'm not saying that's too much, just that when we see the need we have no trouble authorizing a stupendous expenditure.

One of the most important lessons of past failed attempts at helping poor people, one that should resonate with both progressives and conservatives, is something that should have always been obvious: They're poor because they don't have money, so give them some, and let them use their own judgement about what to do with it. Not bloated bureaucracies, social engineering, or experimental programs.

Those of us who are now driving cars like the MME, dipping their toes in the water of self-driving, should be able to foresee a future where most people won't have any salaried work to do, so we're going to have to come to grips with some kind of income from the government. Might as well start with hungry children.

I do hope the EV subsidies continue, but the fact is they're a infinitesimally small part of the overall bill. Love it or hate it, that bill would have transformative effects on American society. It should pass or fail on its merits, irrespective of the needs of our tiny EV community.

 

[Mirak]

To put that in perspective, the Defense bill, which passed without any drama a few weeks ago, will cost $7.3 trillion over the next 10 years if we continue at the FY2022 rate. I'm not saying that's too much, just that when we see the need we have no trouble authorizing a stupendous expenditure.

One of the most important lessons of past failed attempts at helping poor people, one that should resonate with both progressives and conservatives, is something that should have always been obvious: They're poor because they don't have money, so give them some, and let them use their own judgement about what to do with it. Not bloated bureaucracies, social engineering, or experimental programs.

Those of us who are now driving cars like the MME, dipping their toes in the water of self-driving, should be able to foresee a future where most people won't have any salaried work to do, so we're going to have to come to grips with some kind of income from the government. Might as well start with hungry children.

I do hope the EV subsidies continue, but the fact is they're a infinitesimally small part of the overall bill. Love it or hate it, that bill would have transformative effects on American society. It should pass or fail on its merits, irrespective of the needs of our tiny EV community.

Ok. I’m not going to start trading political opinions.

 

[phil]

...they don't have money, so give them some, and let them use their own judgement about what to do with it. Not bloated bureaucracies, social engineering, or experimental programs.

Half of this is right...

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