Consumer Preference for ICE

[timbop]

My E320 diesel will go over 600 miles on the highway between fill-ups as well. Of course it is not a current model year.

I disagree that 300 miles of BEV range is enough. 600 miles of true highway BEV range would practically eliminate the charger availability issue.

Which will happen first: a DCFC on every corner, or 600 mile range EVs? I don't know the answer, but more likely the latter. We won't need a DCFC on every corner if our cars really go 600 miles on a charge.

The difference is the ability to charge at home, charge at a hotel, and charge at a friend's house. No ICE vehicle can do that, so you need gas stations. If you can get all your charging without needing to stop between destinations, you don't need a DCFC at all.

Actually, BEV charging "wherever" is a victim of the North American grid. In almost anywhere else in the world every outlet is 220-240V so you can plug in anywhere there is an outlet and get a reasonable overnight charge.

Like the QWERTY keyboard and left/right hand driving, 110V was an arbitrary decision made during the technology's infancy with wholly unanticipated long term repercussions. And yes, I know the QWERTY keyboard was to designed to slow typists down because the early typewriters jammed easily - but we are still living with the consequences 150 years later.

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[KevinS]

The difference is the ability to charge at home, charge at a hotel, and charge at a friend's house. No ICE vehicle can do that, so you need gas stations. If you can get all your charging without needing to stop between destinations, you don't need a DCFC at all.

This is where I land on the issue. If I didn't have an L2 at home (and usually driving no more than 50-75 miles in a day) getting the MME would have made no sense . I come home every evening, plug in, and have a 90% charge waiting when I get up. I don't miss stopping at the gas station at all.

And I strongly believe there will be instances where people's routines/commutes/anxieties are better served with a hybrid than a BEV. That's just life.

 

[RickMachE]

Like anything, there are a tremendous number of people uniformed about EVs.

The more you take the Mach-E on long drives, the more comfortable you'll get with the range, and going to 10% or less battery before charging.

We took our F-150 and its 36 gallon tank on our 1,200 mile trip to Florida over the holiday due to decreased winter range coupled with the amount of time spent charging. I posted comparisons in another thread. 19mpg X 32 (leaving 4 gallons) = 608 mile range and 76 miles of buffer. That's zero fills during the drive each day on a 2 day trip unless you want cheaper gas on the way.

I noticed a comment about $0.42 per kw to charge at EA. True in some states, if you don't pay $4 to become Pass+, then it's $0.31 and pays off same day. Cancel immediately and it changes back 30 days later. Use EA app not Plug and Charge.

In many states, EA charges by the minute, which is 1/2 the cost of per kW states.

We fell strongly that people need to buy EVs to push the industry. We plan on buying a Lightning, probably in 2023. Will likely keep our ICE F-150 for longer trips, and hope that around 2025 there are EVs with longer range, or vastly faster charging.

 

[mkhuffman]

Actually, BEV charging "wherever" is a victim of the North American grid. In almost anywhere else in the world every outlet is 220-240V so you can plug in anywhere there is an outlet and get a reasonable overnight charge.

But every house does have 240V coming in, and every house usually has at least one 240V outlet somewhere. In many cases, maybe most, it is not located near where you can easily reach it and get a 240V charge, but it is there and you could possibly reach it.

And it isn't the voltage that gets you a faster charge, it is the power. A typical US outlet is rated at 1800 Watts. In the UK, typical outlets are rated for 13 amps, or 3,120 Watts. Other EU countries have various ratings from really low 5 amps, up to 16 amps. So it is possible you could charge twice as fast as L1 here, but even that speed at the really low end of L2 speed and not anything like what you can get with the Ford 240V charger and a 50 amp circuit.

 

[RickMachE]

But every house does have 240V coming in, and every house usually has at least one 240V outlet somewhere. In many cases, maybe most, it is not located near where you can easily reach it and get a 240V charge, but it is there and you could possibly reach it.

This is very region-dependent. We have natural gas, had it in this house, and all previous houses. Only one of them had a dryer outlet, because the assumption is that you're going to go with natural gas because it's cheaper to operate.

We're looking at relocating to an area where there isn't much natural gas infrastructure. Every house has a dryer outlet, because few people get propane dryers.

 

[Stevey]

You might want to get that 21P22 program done there - it makes charging past 80% way more tolerable

I tried, but the cut off was 6/18 and my car was built 6/24 and they said they couldn't apply the update. It will eventually trickle out to our car, but might be a mute point since we ordered a 2022 Extended range to replace it.

 

[Timelessblur]

And yes, I know the QWERTY keyboard was to designed to slow typists down because the early typewriters jammed easily - but we are still living with the consequences 150 years later.

I am going to point out that is not true. QWERTY was not made to slow typist down. It has very little effect at all.
Now it was made to prevent jamming. that much is true. It does that by moving common letters from being next to each other on the hammers that put the ink on the page. In reality QWERTY was made to speed typist up by reducing jamming from happening and allowing them to type faster without causing a jam.
QWERTY still is not a great layout but it is here to stay sadly.

 

[RedStallion]

Actually, BEV charging "wherever" is a victim of the North American grid. In almost anywhere else in the world every outlet is 220-240V so you can plug in anywhere there is an outlet and get a reasonable overnight charge.

Actually it's not the case. The voltage is correct, but the household outlets don't provide enough power. In different countries you can find the standards somewhere between 10A and 15A from a single outlet. For EV charging they use a 3 phase 380V or similar circuits, which are even more expensive than 2-phase 240V in North America.

 

[DYohn]

While I have not read all the comments in this thread, I have read the articles in the press about polls showing consumer preference for ICE vehicles and I'd like to say that no one should be surprised by this. Familiarity, convenience, and perceived cost almost always wins in consumer preference polls.

 

[mkhuffman]

Actually it's not the case. The voltage is correct, but the household outlets don't provide enough power. In different countries you can find the standards somewhere between 10A and 15A from a single outlet. For EV charging they use a 3 phase 380V or similar circuits, which are even more expensive than 2-phase 240V in North America.

That is my point as well. You can get at best twice our L1 speed charging at a typical EU outlet, but still that is very slow. So even in the EU people have to install special outlets to charge their EVs if they want a decent L2 charge speed.

 

[timbop]

QWERTY was not made to slow typist down. It has very little effect at all.
Now it was made to prevent jamming. that much is true.

Umm, OK. Thanks for clearing up the tangential point. The operative point being made was that QWERTY is harder to learn and type on but remains the standard because of a limitation in the earliest typewriters. If you would like to argue further about it, please contact Mr John Mero at Willingboro high school.

That is my point as well. You can get at best twice our L1 speed charging at a typical EU outlet, but still that is very slow. So even in the EU people have to install special outlets to charge their EVs if they want a decent L2 charge speed.

Yes, but it is twice as fast and might serve those who don't own their homes or have situations like a friend of mine whose 240V line would take a convoluted route. For condos and apartment dwellers that could be just enough to charge for 12 hours. The same is true for destinations: hotels/motels and other vacation spots might be more likely to make outlets available if they aren't perceived as "special".

Of course, I very well could be deeply mistaken.

 

[Carsinmyblood]

DC fast charges are almost non-existent in Indiana. Yep, it's in Chicago and it's in Indianapolis.

Yea, we had to plan carefully when transecting Indiana last year.

 

[Maquis]

Change is hard - harder for some than others.

I‘d like to have seen a similar poll from 110 years ago about how 81.2% of people prefer a horse to an automobile.

The model T had a range of 20-40 miles on a tank of gas. EVs will evolve just as ICEs did.

 

[RedStallion]

Yes, but it is twice as fast and might serve those who don't own their homes or have situations like a friend of mine whose 240V line would take a convoluted route. For condos and apartment dwellers that could be just enough to charge for 12 hours. The same is true for destinations: hotels/motels and other vacation spots might be more likely to make outlets available if they aren't perceived as "special".

Of course, I very well could be deeply mistaken.

Of course. Ford in UK doesn't promise more than 8 miles per hour when charging from 240V outlet. So your waiting time is more like 30 hours rather than 12.

 

[Mach1E]

Change is hard - harder for some than others.

I‘d like to have seen a similar poll from 110 years ago about how 81.2% of people prefer a horse to an automobile.

The model T had a range of 20-40 miles on a tank of gas. EVs will evolve just as ICEs did.

Except that 110 years ago they also got to choose between electric cars and gas powered ones.

Literally the same choice.

You also can still ride a horse today if you like!

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