For EVs to become “No-Brainers” over ICE.

[AKgrampy]

One of the challenges in having any debate is understanding that different people have different needs. Yes, I want an EV that goes further than 275 x 80% = 220 miles between stops on the highway, but only because a) there aren't enough chargers and b) charging takes too long. But, I don't need two cars that do that. For those that commute to work, many drive short distances. Having a 50 mile range vehicle might be just fine.



Yes, cheap electricity MIGHT drive EV adoption. Problems include:

- Many don't understand their cost of electricity. You ask them and they say 5 cents. Then they figure out the fully loaded cost, and say 14 cents...
- Cheap electricity is often supplied by polluting plants.
- Electricity rates vary widely across the country, and even with a state / county. We were looking at relocating to an area in the SE, where the power is nuclear. One small pocket was a coop utility, buying from the nuclear utility, with much higher rates.



I don't know all the financials of utility companies, but I'm going to challenge the statement that most utilities don't make massive profits. Mine has a market cap of $23 billion. Their net income is over $1B a year. Each year my rates go up. Despite having underground utilities, and being on the edge of a relatively large city (>100,000), we lose power 6 or more times some years. The utility kept trimming trees on the power feed to our neighborhood, with no improvement. So, they embarked on a massive clearing of trees "that you won't pay for". Then they asked for a rate increase to pay for that trimming that we weren't paying for. The CEO makes in excess of $10 million a year, and owns shares work hundreds of millions.

After close to 20 years in our home, we bought a whole house generator due to the unreliability of our power. It has run for more than a day a handful of times in under a year. Cost me just over $10,000. And it's powered by natural gas, supplied by the same utility. Each kW of power provided costs me, as you would expect, much more than electricity would.

I don't believe that electricity costs are impacting those buying $60,000+ vehicles.

I was a VP for a utility for 15 years. I can’t speak for all of them and we were a co-op but in general utilities do have to justify their rates and they are regulated. I do realize the big boys are investor owned but even then I think they are regulated and have fixed returns. I am not a financial guru but I think there is something to be said for a guaranteed ROR and I imagine some investor owned utilities have decent ones. A utility took over the military base locally and they were guaranteed either 12.5 or 14% return on capital improvements. They went wild replacing power lines, etc until someone finally got control of things. Speaking of whole house generators that was the first thing I purchase when I retired! Not that I no longer felt the utility would cut it after I left. Our local utility’s saving attribute outage wise is we installed a 27 MW battery back up system. Prevents many outages. Our main generation is oil fired so very expensive so battery backup saved money.

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[MW1515]

No, "the public" is not to blame. The widespread corruption of peer-reviewed science is to blame.

I am not blaming "the public." The manipulation of science by the media and politicians is part of the problem, as is the terrible job scientists do at communicating with the general public. I believe you are strongly overestimating the corruption present in peer reviewed science, even though I agree it's not perfect. Despite its flaws, it remains the best way of discovering things about the natural world and sharing that information with others. If we discarded or ignored everything that has flaws in society, we wouldn't be left with much of anything.

 

[phil]

If we discarded or ignored everything that has flaws in society, we wouldn't be left with much of anything.

This is a red herring. Nobody advocates discarding or ignoring science. What I do advocate is healthy skepticism.

We can agree to disagree on the extent of the corruption in peer-reviewed science.

 

[DevSecOps]

My brother is one of the Sr. Laser Physicists at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and specializes in fusion ignition (lasers). He was part of the team on the December 5 shot that made history and national news.

While I commend them for doing that work, the press release thanked Biden and the current administration for all they've done towards climate change. In reality, that work had been ongoing for years and they have made many, many previous shots in prior admins. It's a prime example of how a monumental achievement, years in the making, is politicized, when it shouldn't be at all.

Aside from that, my brother thinks that because he has a PhD and is 1000000x smarter than I when it comes to lasers that he's an expert on everything scientific in the world.

Obviously not every scientist is the same, but it's very blatant that politics and agendas play a huge roll in the scientific community. I see it every year at Christmas when we all get together.

 

[voxel]

My brother is one of the Sr. Laser Physicists at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and specializes in fusion ignition (lasers). He was part of the team on the December 5 shot that made history and national news.

While I commend them for doing that work, the press release thanked Biden and the current administration for all they've done towards climate change. In reality, that work had been ongoing for years and they have made many, many previous shots in prior admins. It's a prime example of how a monumental achievement, years in the making, is politicized, when it shouldn't be at all.

Aside from that, my brother thinks that because he has a PhD and is 1000000x smarter than I when it comes to lasers that he's an expert on everything scientific in the world.

Obviously not every scientist is the same, but it's very blatant that politics and agendas play a huge roll in the scientific community. I see it every year at Christmas when we all get together.

The politicization of rocket launches is very apparent in Florida. I'd rather not see a single government bobblehead speak at these launches again.

The whole politicization of the COVID vaccine was hilarious too. I give credit primarily to the German government for the $445M grant that fund the first working one.

 

[Blue highway]

Doesn't the approach GM takes (dividing the pack in half to charge each in parallel at double the overall rate) get around that issue? Honest question. I am not a battery expert.

800v solves some other thorny problems but not C rate of the cells.

C rate by cell can be the same in either a 400v or 800v system, but the current is cut in half with an 800v pack relative to a 400V pack charging at the same kW... which gets you around some heat related current and time limits at DCFC.

a 150kW charger at 400v tries to push ~375A. (375A*400v=150kW) That heats up a lot of stuff... you can get 150kW at "only" 187.5A...(187.5A*800V=150kW) charge cables, car wiring, battery bus bars, (HVBJB) etc. stays a lot cooler or can be physically smaller for the same kW at 800v vs 400v.

 

[voxel]

800v solves some other thorny problems but not C rate of the cells.

C rate by cell can be the same in either a 400v or 800v system, but the current is cut in half with an 800v pack relative to a 400V pack charging at the same kW... which gets you around some heat related current and time limits at DCFC.

a 150kW charger at 400v tries to push ~375A. (375A*400v=150kW) That heats up a lot of stuff... you can get 150kW at "only" 187.5A...(187.5A*800V=150kW) charge cables, car wiring, battery bus bars, (HVBJB) etc. stays a lot cooler or can be physically smaller for the same kW at 800v vs 400v.

Charging and discharging. Less heat generated when powering the EV at higher power levels

 

[bp99]

The edge case of driving hundreds of miles a day is not applicable to most folks. Many who need to do this occasionally would be better off renting a vehicle for a weekend getaway

If you do it occasionally, it's not an edge case. And why should I get a crappy base trim rental for a long trip when I spent $50k + on a car that has the comforts I want? The comforts are far less a need for typical 10-20 minute errands than for those days I spend 10 hours driving.

 

[Teslaeata]

If you do it occasionally, it's not an edge case. And why should I get a crappy base trim rental for a long trip when I spent $50k + on a car that has the comforts I want? The comforts are far less a need for typical 10-20 minute errands than for those days I spend 10 hours driving.

Yes, I can identify with this.

All my day-outs are “edge” cases.

300 to 400 mile trips or higher and have been for 2 years in this car covering 62,000 miles, as they always have been in previous ICE cars.

Fully charge overnight and one or two very short stops in the day, never queue, never arrive at a broken charge point, it’s all in the planning using network apps, stopping once or twice in a working day is now a pleasure.

If you’re driving for 300 to 400 miles you really ought to be stopping for a break or two for yours and everybody else’s safety in my view.

Also means I get e-mails & messages answered which I don’t then have to do when I get home.

EV is great for time management is what I find.

If some impatient, uncompromising, unforgiving and worked individual like me can do it, “putting up” with perceived difficulties which are really only differences, surely anybody can adapt.

I agree that having a nice car, well appointed and drop-dead gorgeous is essential when covering this sort of mileage.

Only thing I will say is acquisition prices need to come down for smaller cars to improve uptake and solutions need to be found for those with flats/apartments or with properties without driveways.

Keep enjoying life in your ‘Stang, people!

 

[Glen Boise]

Actually, EV's will become the "no-brainer" answer after the current generation of ICE owners have died off. Especially those who need that "Vroom Vroom" noise of their big V8 engine.

 

[kennethjk]

It is very sad that the corruption of science has become so pervasive. It seems to me that agendas matter more than facts.

Whenever a news report or politician uses science as the reason for a policy, I think they are lying and the science is bogus. I don't trust any of them any more.

And in reality, most of the science we are talking about isn't settled even though they lie to us and tell us it is. I remember all the dire predictions "scientists" made years ago (and more recently) that turned out to be false. They did it to themselves but we all suffer as a result.

Such a dandy society we live in, trust no one. I mean I agree when it comes to politicians but everyone everywhere, wow, although I agree everything should be taken with a grain of salt

But I guess that’s where are right now, sad indeed

 

[kennethjk]

Everyone’s needs are different but the majority (just my guess of course) of people don’t need an EV that’s gets 500 miles. I am talking about people that have private homes And can charge as they want to. It does take a mind reset though.

my brother for example said he will buy an EV when they get 500 miles. The last time he has taken a trip of more than 250 miles is 10 years ago.

the same with many of my friends. Some do but most don’t travel that far, ever. If you travel 30k miles a year as I used to do when working , if would have been a real hassle to DCFC, which is why I didn’t buy a Tesla at the time.

I look at my 3 kids and their families. They take long trips 1 time a year, doable but with kids in the car could be nerve racking to pull up to a DCFC and find broken chargers or a long wait.

of course for those that constantly make long trips it is useful to have a longer range.

my personal target was 300 and the MME fit the bill, over time the health of the battery will decrease and I will see how much that happens, by then I hope they come up with a higher level octane of electricity to make up for it

 

[AKgrampy]

My brother is one of the Sr. Laser Physicists at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and specializes in fusion ignition (lasers). He was part of the team on the December 5 shot that made history and national news.

While I commend them for doing that work, the press release thanked Biden and the current administration for all they've done towards climate change. In reality, that work had been ongoing for years and they have made many, many previous shots in prior admins. It's a prime example of how a monumental achievement, years in the making, is politicized, when it shouldn't be at all.

Aside from that, my brother thinks that because he has a PhD and is 1000000x smarter than I when it comes to lasers that he's an expert on everything scientific in the world.

Obviously not every scientist is the same, but it's very blatant that politics and agendas play a huge roll in the scientific community. I see it every year at Christmas when we all get together.

I have heard it said that people with PhD’s know a lot about very little.

 

[mkhuffman]

Everyone’s needs are different but the majority (just my guess of course) of people don’t need an EV that’s gets 500 miles. I am talking about people that have private homes And can charge as they want to. It does take a mind reset though.

my brother for example said he will buy an EV when they get 500 miles. The last time he has taken a trip of more than 250 miles is 10 years ago.

the same with many of my friends. Some do but most don’t travel that far, ever. If you travel 30k miles a year as I used to do when working , if would have been a real hassle to DCFC, which is why I didn’t buy a Tesla at the time.

I look at my 3 kids and their families. They take long trips 1 time a year, doable but with kids in the car could be nerve racking to pull up to a DCFC and find broken chargers or a long wait.

of course for those that constantly make long trips it is useful to have a longer range.

my personal target was 300 and the MME fit the bill, over time the health of the battery will decrease and I will see how much that happens, by then I hope they come up with a higher level octane of electricity to make up for it

But a BEV is different than an ICEV. You can quickly refill an ICEV, so a lower range is easier to manage.

A 500 mile BEV isn't just a benefit for those who travel 500 miles in a day, it reduces the number of times you need to charge. Sure a bigger battery will take longer to charge, but fewer stops to charge means you don't have to plug in every day. Maybe if you are only doing a short local commute you can go an entire month without plugging in.

The reduced stress and improved flexibility is hugely beneficial, IMO. And lots of people live in shared housing without easy access to a charger on a daily basis. 500 miles mean they don't have to look for a charger as often.

It is all opinion, and certainly the market will decide, but I think long range BEVs are the key to making BEVs on par with ICE regarding refueling pain. Refueling pain is a huge mass market barrier right now.

 

[kennethjk]

But a BEV is different than an ICEV. You can quickly refill an ICEV, so a lower range is easier to manage.

A 500 mile BEV isn't just a benefit for those who travel 500 miles in a day, it reduces the number of times you need to charge. Sure a bigger battery will take longer to charge, but fewer stops to charge means you don't have to plug in every day. Maybe if you are only doing a short local commute you can go an entire month without plugging in.

The reduced stress and improved flexibility is hugely beneficial, IMO. And lots of people live in shared housing without easy access to a charger on a daily basis. 500 miles mean they don't have to look for a charger as often.

It is all opinion, and certainly the market will decide, but I think long range BEVs are the key to making BEVs on par with ICE regarding refueling pain. Refueling pain is a huge mass market barrier right now.

I also believe the 500 mile target is needed to break barriers but in reality most people don’t need it, not rational based on their driving needs,
but as we know making rational decisions don’t always happen.

I also agree about shared housing that’s why I mentioned people who own private homes. I have 20 private homes on my block and I think I am the only one with an EV.

some don’t want it just because, some don’t want it to avoid hassle with charging.
I can’t say I have DCFC’d a lot but I haven’t had a major issue yet, now of course I live in an area where there are many charging option so I am lucky.

I will add as I always do, don’t know if I would go EV route if my 3 kids were young and I was always in a rush due to work. I probably would wait for the longer range car but that’s reducing anxiety not necessarily a need.

refueling pain is real and friends of mine always point out articles critiquing the problems, but maybe it’s just reporters throwing smoke as people have mentioned. Issues are real but I haven’t had any major ones, yet. I hope that statement doesn’t come back to bite me.

I’ll let you know how I feel in October when I drive the car to Florida, assuming my wife lets me, LOL.

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