Elon's Prediction

[Ghost Ryder]

This hypothetical is a straw man. The fact is their salaries did go up 40%.

Great, let's give everyone a 40% raise. Wonder how long it'll take for them to closed down all factories and ship jobs to Mexico or the Far East. Not like the Rust Belt isn't a thing. I've seen this movie before.

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[Ghost Ryder]

This toxic "work hard and you too can be paid like a CEO" BS is ridiculous. Many CEOs started out wealthy to begin with. Some were just lucky. For the average person - even one with a really great, novel idea - the odds of making it big aren't much different than winning the lottery or trying to become a pro sports star. No matter how hard a person works, they have about a .0001% chance of getting to that level. The vast majority of people who bust their ass trying to get there... do not make it.

Talking about wealth inequality is not crying or whining or jealousy. It's discussing a genuinely inequitable system that favors those who are already wealthy - and just enough of those who aren't to further the myth that "anyone can do it." The reality is that it's not at all based on merit. It's based on being at the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, and it REALLY helps if you're already "one of them."

Meanwhile, literally NOBODY is saying CEOs and other executives shouldn't make a lot of money. Just not 400+ times what their average worker makes. But when reasonable people say exactly that, wealth worshippers come out of the woodwork to claim that somehow the CEOs earned it and we should all be grateful for them because without them job creators none of us would have paying jobs in the first place. And it's astonishingly shameless hogwash.

2 things can be right at the same time:
1) CEO pay has gotten out of hand
2) Factory line workers are not worth 150Kannual compensation.

 

[Mach1E]

Exactly, unfortunately we need to be working on these things now, and electing leaders that want to tackle the issue.


This take is always so self-defeating with any level of thought on where it leads. It's a bad idea to not pay your employees a wage to afford your products, which is where many jobs are headed. People talk like increasing union pay, or any worker pay, is just a drain on a company full stop. While paying an employee more isn't a guarantee they will buy your product, you better believe that a union employee making more money is more likely to buy an F-150 or Mach-e than the one in another country that maybe doesn't even have Ford vehicles.

I worked for Ford up until July of this year, and while not everyone owned Ford products, a good number of them do. If an employee gets an extra $20k/yr and goes from driving their 10 year old Fusion to a new F-150, Ford benefits.

The race to the bottom in employee wages is a foolish approach. I worked on the IT side at Ford, which hires a lot in AP (India) because it's "cheaper".

Here's a quick summary of the Ford vehicle selection they can then buy:
https://www.carwale.com/ford-cars/

Obviously it's complicated and again I am fully aware not everyone that works at any company buys their products. But at least with Ford being employed and getting A-Plan is a heck of an incentive, can see that from the two Ford vehicles in my user picture, expensive Ford vehicles too because Ford paid well enough for it.

Goes back to all the complaints of companies about younger generations not buying diamond engagement rings or eating out for dinner and that as much as they used to, if you underpay your employees and replace them with AI or whatever else you keep defending, suddenly nobody buys your stuff. Not saying every employee should have CEO pay, but there is clearly a better middle ground than the average company wants to provide on their own.

So the argument is that if you pay your employees more $$, you might make a tiny sliver of that back if they buy a car at employee discount prices?

The return on that investment rounds to zero.

Gonna have to come up with a better business argument than that if they hope to get what they want.

So far the “give the unions what they want arguments” seem to go like this:

1. CEOs make too much money therefore I should make too much money (get paid above the going rate).

2. Some argument about the middle class (even though the workers aren’t middle class).

3. some sort of economics argument about giving people more money helps the economy and maybe the company gets some back.


What’s missing are two vital arguments-

1. Arguing that the workers are underpaid.

2. Arguing how this would be a wise business move.

I think those arguments are missing because they aren’t underpaid and it will be terrible for the companies. So instead they have to come up with some creative wordsmithing to make you think there is some bigger issue at play.

Part of me wishes they would just give in to all the demands so that when the plants are closed down in a few years they can say “I told you so!!”

 

[DennisD]

I respectfully disagree. I made it to where I am, previous CEO of a company that went through investment rounds and eventually acquired, through a lot of hard work. There was no luck involved. No one helped me financially in my ventures until I proved to investors that I had something worth investing in. I fell many times but I never gave up.

My grandfather came to the USA as an immigrant at the age of 3 from Italy. Lived under bridges as a young adult in poverty. He founded, what is now, one of the top 100 largest construction companies in the USA. He will forever be my idol.

Most people are happy with their jobs and never try for more. Others don't have the desire to take risk. I don't believe that you can stop a dedicated individual. You may never be a millionaire, but self worth, drive and dedication at any income is all that matters. Anyone who has that doesn't complain about what others make.

No luck involved eh?

What was it that your Grandfather did?

Luck has MUCH to do with where one ends up. I am guessing that if you were born in North Korea and was in the lower class, you would not end up on the "good end" my friend.

The USA has had Unions for the entire time that your Grandfather thrived in this Country. No one makes it on their own btw. It takes people with money to make other people successful. I am guessing that if the Unions would not have been created, there would have been a true two class society with no Middle class and your Grandfathers construction Company would not have done as well. I am guessing of course but it does take a strong Middle class to make things go round and round many times. ?

 

[Mach1E]

This hypothetical is a straw man. The fact is their salaries did go up 40%.

Ok.

And how much did the salaries of the workers in question go up since 2009?

I’m guessing it’s not 0%.

 

[thekat03]

Seeing as the Cost Of Living Adjustments that got sacrificed 15 years ago have not yet been reinstituted... Actually, their pay went down. "Adjusting for inflation, autoworkers have seen their average wages fall 19.3% since 2008."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-much-do-uaw-workers-make/

 

[tuminatr]

No luck involved eh?

What was it that your Grandfather did?

Luck has MUCH to do with where one ends up. I am guessing that if you were born in North Korea and was in the lower class, you would not end up on the "good end" my friend.

The USA has had Unions for the entire time that your Grandfather thrived in this Country. No one makes it on their own btw. It takes people with money to make other people successful. I am guessing that if the Unions would not have been created, there would have been a true two class society with no Middle class and your Grandfathers construction Company would not have done as well. I am guessing of course but it does take a strong Middle class to make things go round and round many times. ?

My grandfather also came to the USA from Italy in his youth Palermo Sicily to be specific. He did many things some of them may even have been union jobs. Some of them may have been the family business. For the majority of his life he was in construction.

I for one i don't believe in luck. He was skilled and a natural people person he networked his way to success.

The biggest lesson he taught me is you make your own luck.

 

[DennisD]

Ok.

And how much did the salaries of the workers in question go up since 2009?

I’m guessing it’s not 0%.

Not enough to keep up with inflation so actually below zero percent. So I guess you are correct.

Now the CEO's on the other hand, has kept up and exceeded with the inflation costs.

Many of the CEO's pay have risen to an obscene rate in comparison and that is what the fight is all about.

The strike is highlighting this point and the free market will ultimately decide this outcome.

 

[DevSecOps]

No luck involved eh?

What was it that your Grandfather did?

Luck has MUCH to do with where one ends up. I am guessing that if you were born in North Korea and was in the lower class, you would not end up on the "good end" my friend.

The USA has had Unions for the entire time that your Grandfather thrived in this Country. No one makes it on their own btw. It takes people with money to make other people successful. I am guessing that if the Unions would not have been created, there would have been a true two class society with no Middle class and your Grandfathers construction Company would not have done as well. I am guessing of course but it does take a strong Middle class to make things go round and round many times. ?

Not sure why you think I'm opposed to unions? I actually said that my grandfather's company is a union shop, to this day. I've never argued that unions shouldn't exist. That doesn't mean however, that I agree with their wages. Likewise, I've never said that the middle class is bad. In fact many union employees have 100k-200k annual packages. That's not really middle class for a single earner. I'm also not sure what NK has anything to do with this, I could have been born with 12 arms also, but I wasn't. You don't like me, that's obvious from many previous posts, but attributing all those things to me that I've never said is wrong.

My grandfather borrowed tools from his uncle who owned a welding shop and started doing handyman work because he was tired of being a prune farmer. That turned into a company. I have his original receipts and check books from the 1950s framed on my wall where he collected 3.50 for an hour of work. That's not luck, that's working for a better life.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

I agree, but I believe you’ve left out an important factor - luck. In addition to always pushing, pushing, pushing to get to the next level, there’s a degree of luck (or being at the right place at the right time) involved. I saw it myself numerous times throughout my career.

There's always some luck involved. But the hard worker usually rises to the top. While the lazy or unmotivated worker only sees those who succeed as lucky. They don't see the hard work that went into it. You have to have the hard work and skill to take advantage of a "lucky" situation.

 

[DennisD]

My grandfather also came to the USA from Italy in his youth Palermo Sicily be specific. He did many things some of them may even have been union jobs. Some of them may have been the family business. For the majority of his life he was in construction.

I for one don't believe in luck. He was skilled and a natural people person he networked his way to success.

Well for most that have "made it", many don't believe in luck. Yes, it takes hard work but if you were born in the early 1800's as a black man, you could have been the hardest working man in the history of this Earth and "luck" would have been all you had if you escaped slavery.

I know that is an extreme case but where you were born and when you born will usually play a LARGE factor in how well you do.

I have known many Farmers that went broke in the early 80's due to bad timing (luck) and some Farmers that were average made it because of the timing of when they sold grain etc.

Once again, hard work usually pays off but merely being born is a stroke of luck and being born in the USA or making it to the USA is like winning the lottery IMHO.

 

[DennisD]

Not sure why you think I'm opposed to unions? I actually said that my grandfather's company is a union shop, to this day. I've never argued that unions shouldn't exist. That doesn't mean however, that I agree with their wages. Likewise, I've never said that the middle class is bad. In fact many union employees have 100k-200k annual packages. That's not really middle class for a single earner. I'm also not sure what NK has anything to do with this, I could have been born with 12 arms also, but I wasn't. You don't like me, that's obvious from many previous posts, but attributing all those things to me that I've never said is wrong.

My grandfather borrowed tools from his uncle who owned a welding shop and started doing handyman work because he was tired of being a prune farmer. That turned into a company. I have his original receipts and check books from the 1950s framed on my wall where he collected 3.50 for an hour of work. That's not luck, that's working for a better life.

It can be both Luck AND hard work.

You were lucky to be born with successful people around you and you should be proud of that.

I was born with a hard working Dad and he was/is very successful and I will be the first to admit that I am lucky because of that. I took the same skill set that he taught me and I applied that to my Company. I was lucky to start my Company in the wealthiest part of the State and I was lucky that the depression didn't exist in my lifetime and I am lucky that I wasn't born in the Civil War times.

You may not realize it, but you are one lucky SOB and that is not a negative thing. It is fact. ?

 

[Mach1E]

Not enough to keep up with inflation so actually below zero percent. So I guess you are correct.

Now the CEO's on the other hand, has kept up and exceeded with the inflation costs.

Many of the CEO's pay have risen to an obscene rate in comparison and that is what the fight is all about.

The strike is highlighting this point and the free market will ultimately decide this outcome.

Please, no more fuzzy math.

The argument is that executives make 40% more than they did in 2009.

So how much do the workers in question make more than 2009?

Whatever that number is…… they need to subtract it from their 40% demands.

Edit- using the data from the article posted above (only goes back 10 years unfortunately), but the wages just in the last 10 yrs went up 32%!
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CEU...=XGtable&output_view=data&include_graphs=true

No wonder they aren’t sharing their own numbers!

 

[Just Lurking]

Only because there's various incorrect answers to the this question... neither the labor market nor unions created the 40 hour work week. This was created by Henry Ford after it was determined that production increased only fractionally in the additional 8 hours of a 48 hour work week. Other manufactures late adopted the schedule.

Henry Ford may have helped popularize it, but the origins predate him by decades.

Ok.

And how much did the salaries of the workers in question go up since 2009?

I’m guessing it’s not 0%.

They've gone down significantly, actually, in inflation-adjusted terms. There has been no COLA since 2009, and only occasional small percentage increases that have fallen well behind inflation.

 

[Mach1E]

They've gone down significantly, actually, in inflation-adjusted terms. There has been no COLA since 2009, and only occasional small percentage increases that have fallen well behind inflation.

My goodness, how hard is it to get a straight answer??

The executive pay went up 40% (not adjusted for inflation).

How much (using the SAME math) did the union workers pay go up (not adjusted for inflation) in the same time period?

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