Faulty math article on EV v ICE

[HuntingPudel]

I just drive a EV because I like the instant torque, did not do any complex math or CO2 emissions worry

Me too, but I also like the fact that fuel is free unless I am on the road. ??

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[superdave80]

It sounds like this group is factoring other things. But I can’t even say what because I can’t see their data or math.

https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/EV_ICE_FuelingCosts_2ed4-5-22.pdf

Page 72 (B-11) has a full breakdown of the costs.

Short version: They 'estimate' $1,300 annual fuel costs for an EV, of which about $500 are charger/wiring and road taxes. The charger cost is WAY too high, and the road taxes shouldn't even be included at all, as they have nothing to do with fueling.

 

[Guss-E 2021]

But the tire plastic particles and brake dust ??‍

? But dude, I drive like wicked slow.

 

[GreaseMonkey]

? But dude, I drive like wicked slow.

Doesn’t matter. 30% heavier. End of discussion.

 

[Mirak]

https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/EV_ICE_FuelingCosts_2ed4-5-22.pdf

Page 72 (B-11) has a full breakdown of the costs.

Short version: They 'estimate' $1,300 annual fuel costs for an EV, of which about $500 are charger/wiring and road taxes. The charger cost is WAY too high, and the road taxes shouldn't even be included at all, as they have nothing to do with fueling.

Well there you go. I guess maybe they are assuming you’re living in a state which assesses an added registration fee for EVs to offset lost gas tax revenue.

Adding charger/wiring cost is valid, but would vary wildly from home to home. My house already had a 240v outlet in the garage and I use the free mobile charger. If folks have a breaker box in the garage, it might cost a few hundred dollars to add an outlet. Or over $1,000 if not. So much variability.

 

[superdave80]

I guess maybe they are assuming you’re living in a state which assesses an added registration fee for EVs to offset lost gas tax revenue.

They are, but those registration fees are the same regardless of how much I fuel my EV. So it's not a 'fuel cost'.

Adding charger/wiring cost is valid,

It is, but they are assuming I will pay $350 each and EVERY year, which is just crazy.

 

[dmastro]

It's hard to analyze because of all the different rate structures throughout the US. Without researching to verify, I pulled this information relating to average US electricity rate from EnergySage.

As of February 2023, the average residential electricity rate in the U.S. is about 23 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh). Importantly, electricity rates can vary widely based on where you live. Rates vary from a low of 10.35 ¢ / kWh in Idaho to a high of 28.38 ¢ / kWh in California.​

Specific to the area I live in, PG&E's EV specific rates vary from $.27 off peak to $.64 peak. Even with California's exorbitant gas prices, charging at peak rates is a pricey endeavor.

Thankfully, my utility is much more reasonable. When I plug in at home I'm paying a marginal rate of about $.15 - much less costly than gas.

 

[Maquis]

It’s not faulty math, it’s the data they chose to use in the math calculations.

 

[Mirak]

They are, but those registration fees are the same regardless of how much I fuel my EV. So it's not a 'fuel cost'.

Hmmm… I think it is fair to add that cost since it does pertain to fuel. The whole point of the fee is to offset lost gas taxes. So it seems to me that that should be considered to arrive at the closest apples to apples comparison.

It is, but they are assuming I will pay $350 each and EVERY year, which is just crazy.

Yeah, that’s nutso. At most I’d assume an average cost of maybe $1,000 amortized over 10 years. $350 per year? Yeesh.

 

[Scorpy2643]

Since my PV array over-generates, my electricity costs me nothing. ?‍?

Same here. Only charge using excess solar.

 

[superdave80]

Hmmm… I think it is fair to add that cost since it does pertain to fuel.

Not for the EV it doesn't. I pay the same whether I put 1 KWH into my Mach-E or 1,000 KWh. There is absolutely no relationship to fueling. It's a road tax. They could have collected it for ICE vehicles in the same manner (at registration), but they had a chance to 'pay-as-you-use' at the pump. Drive more (or heavier) vehicles, you pay more tax. So the ICE tax is a per-gallon tax, and you can't avoid it as you fuel up.

 

[ctenidae]

It sounds like this group is factoring other things. But I can’t even say what because I can’t see their data or math.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

 

[Deleted member 16048]

I agree. I know this has been discussed on this forum elsewhere, and I know there are places in the country where electricity is very costly. So there are instances where charging at home can be more expensive than the equivalent ICE vehicle filling the gas tank.

However, for most of us who charge at home, it is far cheaper than the ICE equivalent.

I have tracked this closely ever since switching to my MME.

In one year of owning my MME (today is that anniversary!), it has been $868 cheaper to charge my vehicle than it would have been to pay for gas in a vehicle that gets 27mpg. (I traded my wife's 2015 Hyundai Sonata in when buying the MME)

In less than 3 months of my wife owning an Audi Q4 e-tron, it has been $279 cheaper to cahrge her vehicle at home than it was to pay for gas in a vehicle that gets 25mpg (we traded a 2019 Hyundai Santa Fe for the Audi).

The ICE vehicles I use for comparison didn't actually average 27 and 25mpg, but I use those figures to be conservative.

Energy costs in Las Vegas are currently about $0.167 per kWh. So I believe we are on the lower side of the national average

And I agree totally. Since you're an accountant, you know your math well! Here in Minnesota I am paying $0.16 per kWh, since my apartment set that price on their charge point installation to the peak energy rate. Others in the area are paying $0.04. So that $0.37 is insane. That would be DC Fast charging rates around here...

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

AEG, the author of that bit of trash has been mentioned here before... they are a shill for ICE cars.

Their math is worse case electric rates plus the cost of a home charger monetized over a year... so nobody experiences the "real world" rates they project outside of a few places in Cali.

The 37¢ price is close to our off-peak (9 am to 6 pm) base price. BEVs charged at home are still cheaper than gas though as that runs about $5.45 per U.S. gallon for regular.

 

[Mirak]

Not for the EV it doesn't. I pay the same whether I put 1 KWH into my Mach-E or 1,000 KWh. There is absolutely no relationship to fueling. It's a road tax. They could have collected it for ICE vehicles in the same manner (at registration), but they had a chance to 'pay-as-you-use' at the pump. Drive more (or heavier) vehicles, you pay more tax. So the ICE tax is a per-gallon tax, and you can't avoid it as you fuel up.

Yeah, I understand your point. But I don’t think it’s honest apples to apples comparison to ignore that fee, which does pertain to fuel because the whole purpose of it is to offset lost road taxes - just because you don’t think it is fair or as directly related to consumption. It’s still a fee that EV owners have to pay, related to fuel, whether we consume that much fuel or not.

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