Faulty math article on EV v ICE

[devmach-e]

Yeah, I understand your point. But I don’t think it’s honest apples to apples comparison to ignore that fee, which does pertain to fuel because the whole purpose of it is to offset lost road taxes - just because you don’t think it is fair or as directly related to consumption. It’s still a fee that EV owners have to pay, related to fuel, whether we consume that much fuel or not.

Well, one way to make it more fair would be to remove the state gas tax when calculating the per-mile cost for an ICE vehicle.

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[superdave80]

that fee, which does pertain to fuel because the whole purpose of it is to offset lost road taxes

Why do you think a 'road tax' is in any way related to fuel? Even if we somehow make a solar powered vehicle in the future that requires no fuel, you still need taxes to maintain roads. When you go to a gas station to fuel up, you pay whatever is listed on the sign. And that has taxes in it (curiously, one of the few things I seen sold that does not allow you to list a 'before tax price').

When I plug in my vehicle to fuel up, I pay zero road taxes.

just because you don’t think it is fair

What does 'fair' have to do with anything? This group made a 'cost of fuel' report, and then included road taxes that have nothing to do with my electricity usage. That's stupid.

It’s still a fee that EV owners have to pay,..

Yes

related to fuel...

No

whether we consume that much fuel or not.

I could consume zero KWh and still have to pay the full fee.

 

[superdave80]

Well, one to make it more fair would be to remove the state gas tax when calculating the per-mile cost for an ICE vehicle.

As soon as you can figure out to remove the gas tax when actually filling up, sure. Otherwise, that tax is coming out of your pocket for each and every gallon you pump.

Look if they want to stick to JUST fuel (gas vs. electricty) and remove all taxes, that's fine. But then they need to remove the home charger shenanigans (which is a big chunk of their EV fueling cost).

 

[Auto Motive]

I seriously can't get their math to work they quote charging at home and charging at a public station yet their numbers don't make sense when using the charge from home numbers.


For example:

Charging any of these vehicles at home will run about $12.62 per 100 miles while fueling one at a gas station may run about $11.08.

I think the about is using 37 cents a kilowatt hour or thereabouts, which for home charging is way out of line.

They're using bad numbers to make a bad point that's not true. Most people who have electric cars recharge at home where it is far cheaper than gas.




https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-charging-cost-versus-gas-car-truck-suv-2023-7

Our rate all extra fees and taxes is $ .15kwh here in West. Pa utilty is West Penn Power.

 

[devmach-e]

As soon as you can figure out to remove the gas tax when actually filling up, sure. Otherwise, that tax is coming out of your pocket for each and every gallon you pump.

Look if they want to stick to JUST fuel (gas vs. electricty) and remove all taxes, that's fine. But then they need to remove the home charger shenanigans (which is a big chunk of their EV fueling cost).

Dead simple to figure it out. Find out what your state gas tax is. Multiple that times the number of gallons you pumped. Subtract that result from the total you paid to fill up. Say gas is $4 a gallon, and you put in 10 gallons. That's $40. State gas tax is 25 cents a gallon, so that's $2.50. $40 - $2.50 = $37.50.

Me, personally, I convert things to cents per mile to figure out what my fuel cost is (including state gas tax). If gas is $5 a gallon, and I'm driving a hybrid SUV that gets 25 MPG, it's costing me 20 cents a mile to operate the car. If I'm paying 30 cents a kWh, and the Mach-E is getting 3 miles per kWh, it's costing me 11 cents a mile (that factors in the 90% efficiency of the internal charger).

I agree, the "study" uses shitty math and shitty assumptions. I paid about $1250 11 years ago to put in a Level 2 EVSE, including the EVSE and the wiring/electrician. I haven't had to pay anything since that. If I amortize the cost of it, it's about $113 per year. And then if I divide that by the 20K miles or so a year I put on the car, it adds all of about half a cent to my per-mile cost. And every year gets cheaper since it was a fixed cost that I paid years ago.

 

[Mirak]

Why do you think a 'road tax' is in any way related to fuel? Even if we somehow make a solar powered vehicle in the future that requires no fuel, you still need taxes to maintain roads. When you go to a gas station to fuel up, you pay whatever is listed on the sign. And that has taxes in it (curiously, one of the few things I seen sold that does not allow you to list a 'before tax price').

When I plug in my vehicle to fuel up, I pay zero road taxes.

What does 'fair' have to do with anything? This group made a 'cost of fuel' report, and then included road taxes that have nothing to do with my electricity usage. That's stupid.


Yes

No

I could consume zero KWh and still have to pay the full fee.

Sorry man, but you’re just wrong. Stay with me here:

1. Most states have a specific tax tacked onto gasoline which specifically goes to fund road construction.
2. Because EV owners don’t pay that tax, some states have added an EV registration fee to serve the same purpose.
3. Ergo, if you want to perform an apples to apples comparison between cost of fueling an ICE and an EV, you should include that fee. It pertains to fuel because of Points 1 and 2.

I understand your point that the EVs are being taxed differently - the ICE pays the road tax per gallon versus the EV which pays in a lump sum each year at registration. And I understand that because of this difference, the road tax is not linked to consumption. But it is still a road tax associated with fuel.

 

[Mirak]

Well, one to make it more fair would be to remove the state gas tax when calculating the per-mile cost for an ICE vehicle.

Correct. Either remove that gas tax from the ICE column, or add the fee to the EV column, but you’ve gotta do one or the other to get to a fair comparison.

 

[superdave80]

Sorry man, but you’re just wrong. Stay with me here:

Oh, please go slowly so I can keep up. Thanks.

Most states have a specific tax tacked onto gasoline which specifically goes to fund road construction.

My EV uses no gas, so irrelevant.

Because EV owners don’t pay that tax, some states have added an EV registration fee to serve the same purpose.

To fund road construction and maintenance. Yes.

Ergo, if you want to perform an apples to apples comparison between cost of fueling an ICE and an EV, you should include that fee.

What fuel? Electricity? It has nothing to do with the annual road tax.

But it is still a road tax associated with fuel.

What fuel?

 

[Mirak]

Oh, please go slowly so I can keep up. Thanks.

My EV uses no gas, so irrelevant.

To fund road construction and maintenance. Yes.

What fuel? Electricity? It has nothing to do with the annual road tax.

What fuel?

This. Is. Amazing.

Dude, the whole point of this study is to compare the cost of fueling an ICE versus fueling an EV. They both use fuel, just gasoline versus electron.

Do you think your EV runs on rainbows and unicorn farts? Maybe perpetual motion?

Or is your argument that one fuel is taxed for road maintenance and the other isn’t? That is false. They are both taxed - they are just taxed differently! One fuel has the tax tacked on to the gallon, the other fuel has it tacked onto the annual registration fee. Either way, you are paying it. So you can’t do an apples to apples comparison without accounting for both.

You go ahead and have the last word - you’re just going to talk past me anyway. You appear to be making a concerted effort to miss the point.

 

[Guss-E 2021]

Doesn’t matter. 30% heavier. End of discussion.

With my tires wrapped in pillows ?

 

[superdave80]

They both use fuel, just gasoline versus electron.

Gasoline: Road tax added to cost of each gallon
Electrons: No road tax added to cost of each kWh... or any kWh. When I plug in my vehicle, do you know how much I pay in 'road taxes' for every kWh? Zero. Nada. Ziltch. The government has no idea how much (if any) electricity I am putting in my vehicle, so how do they tax my fuel?

One fuel has the tax tacked on to the gallon, the other fuel has it tacked onto the annual registration fee.

My CAR is taxed, my FUEL is not. I'm still amazed that you don't see that distinction, despite the numerous times I've pointed this out. You can say 'It's not fair!' as many times as you want, that's just the way it is.

You appear to be making a concerted effort to miss the point.

I understand your point. It's just wrong.

 

[DevSecOps]

My CAR is taxed, my FUEL is not. I'm still amazed that you don't see that distinction, despite the numerous times I've pointed this out. You can say 'It's not fair!' as many times as you want, that's just the way it is.

No, it's not. You logic only makes sense if ICE vehicles had to pay the same fee that EVs do at registration. They don't because they pay it at the pump. EV's don't pay it at the pump, instead they pay it at registration. You can't say that the gas tax is okay to include all while saying that the EV tax is okay to exclude otherwise you're being blatantly bias. You're conflating "gas" with "tax". The tax in the gas price is for road maintenance, not the gas. The tax in the registration is for road maintenance, not the vehicle. The tax in both places is for the same thing.

Also the cost of EVSE installation is valid because you didn't pay to install the gas pumps. Hardware is hardware, fuel is fuel, taxes are taxes. With an ICE vehicle there's no fee for hardware whereas with an EV it's a required cost to "refuel" at home.

 

[superdave80]

You can't say that the gas tax is okay to include all while saying that the EV tax is okay to exclude otherwise you're being blatantly bias.

If this was a total cost of ownership, then yes, include it. But this is a FUEL cost comparison, not a TAX comparison. My annual registration is a vehicle tax, not a fuel tax.

Also the cost of EVSE installation is valid...

Including a charger cost is fair, I just felt that the annual cost they had ($350 every year?) was way too high.

 

[Mirak]

If this was a total cost of ownership, then yes, include it. But this is a FUEL cost comparison, not a TAX comparison. My annual registration is a vehicle tax, not a fuel tax.

Including a charger cost is fair, I just felt that the annual cost they had ($350 every year?) was way too high.

For EVs the road tax is being tacked onto the annual registration, but it is still a substitute for the gas tax you’re not paying. The money goes to road maintenance either way. You are paying it either way. So you can’t have an apples to apples comparison without either (1) excluding both, or (2) taking both into account.

I don’t know how many different ways I can explain this.

Ok, let’s try it one more way:

Superdave80: “I don’t pay the gas tax because I drive an EV!”

PeopleWhoUnderstandHowThisWorks: “Yes you do. You just pay it in a lump sum with your annual registration.”

Superdave80: “But that’s not a fuel tax - it’s a registration fee!!”

PeopleWhoUnderstandHowThisWorks: “So what? You still pay it, it’s for the same exact purpose, and it is imposed specifically because you don’t pay the gas tax.”

Superdave80: “Yeah, but because the tax is on my car instead of the electricity, it shouldn’t count when comparing cost to fuel my car.”

PeopleWhoUnderstandHowThisWorks: “You completely ignored everything I just explained to you.”

 

[devmach-e]

I suspect we're getting into the weeds here when we're trying to account for the extra registration fees, cost to install a EVSE, or what the gas taxes are that someone has to pay. Those are important considerations, but I think if you are purely looking at what you are paying at the moment to fuel your car, the simplest approach really should be "what do I pay per kWh or what am I paying for a gallon of gas, how far can I go on either of those fuel sources, and what is my cost per mile"..

I do agree that those extra things are necessary to look at when considering total cost of ownership. I've already said that my EVSE install amortized over 11 years adds a whopping half cent to my per-mile cost. Some manufacturers, like GM, provide a dual-voltage EVSE and will pay for the install of a 50A outlet, so the cost for an EVSE can be $0. If I include the extra registration fee ($125 or something like that) that I have to pay because I have an EV, it might add another half cent. Still cheaper than the Highlander Hybrid to drive.

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