Faulty math article on EV v ICE

[IMDIDOC]

A couple of things:
Rather than the cost of electricity, I do the cost per mile. I have a meter before the charging unit and at the end of the month, I note the amount for that month. My electric bill arrives about the same time, so I know the rate. (July was $0.126/kw). Then the mileage for the month of July resulted in $.0375/mile. ((KW used X rate per KW)/Miles driven)

Also the charging unit can be claimed on your tax return if you qualify. That reduces the initial cost of the unit which is a one-time cost.

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[superdave80]

“So what? You still pay it, it’s for the same exact purpose, and it is imposed specifically because you don’t pay the gas tax.”

Riddle me this: If tomorrow the states decided to do away with the gas tax, and instead impose the same vehicle registration/road tax for ICE (just like for EVs), how would we now treat this road tax for a fueling cost analysis?

 

[DevSecOps]

I dunno, most Mach E's are not GTs. My Premium is a ~47K car and is more comparable to


An example of the problem in the analysis is amortizing the EVSE over one year. Should you include the EVSE, sure. is one year reasonable?

I have never said that the article is correct. I've only been arguing the people who don't think that the cost of the road maintenance tax and EVSE fees should be included. I don't know what the correct amortization should be, nor do I really care. Everyone is going to pick whatever best suits their argument here so there's really no point in arguing that.

As for the price of your car and what percentage is GT vs non GT, I don't really care about that either. Pick a comparable ICE vehicle to whatever you have and it's going to be 10s of thousands cheaper. All I'm saying is compare apples to apples. If people want to misdirect by claiming things are part of cost of ownership then let's talk about that. If people want to be fair about road maintenance taxes then let's talk about "fuel" prices.

My only gripe here is with those who want to pick the costs based on the agenda they want to achieve. If that's the authors of the article then shame on them. If that's people in this forum, then shame on them. I'm not arguing what's correct/incorrect. I'm arguing to be fair about it and make similar comparisons.

 

[VegasWeezy]

I specifically said this article was just about fuel. The reason I brought up cost of ownership is because people are arguing that the road maintenance tax and EVSE costs should be cost of ownership and not included in the fuel price. They want to help their numbers by excluding costs directly related to charging or taxes directly related to the ICE fuel equivalent. So, I said that let's talk about total cost of ownership then.

The reason I picked the Mustang GT Premium is because it's as close as you can get to the same as the MME GTPE. They are both Ford, both Mustangs and both GT Premium versions. It's about comparing something that is similar. A Porsche Macan GTS is not even close to an MME GTPE, and absolutely asinine to compare those as equal. If you want to compare your Premium ER MME then do it with a Mustang with a starting MSRP of $36k, or an Escape SUV starting at $28k, or an Explorer starting at $36k. Pick the ICE equivalent from the same brand. Even a fully decked out King Ranch Explorer, with AWD, Leather etc is still cheaper than a Premium ER MME and will probably hold it's value much better as well.

Like I said, I was making a ridiculous comparison with the Macan GTS. I was just picking a random compact SUV that costs way more than the MME. I agree with all of your points.

A like for like cost of ownership comparison would be the MME versus another small ICE SUV with similar cargo space, seating and tech/comfort features. This is a tough comparison to make until after you have owned each of these over a period of time and then disposed of them. Otherwise, you won't be able to take everything into account besides MSRP (charging vs fueling, registration costs and taxes, maintenance costs, residual value, etc.).

It would be very interesting to see a comparison like this, where the MME and the ICE vehicle were purchased around the same time, driven for say 5 years at similar rates and sold/traded/disposed of around the same time.

 

[DevSecOps]

Riddle me this: If tomorrow the states decided to do away with the gas tax, and instead impose the same vehicle registration/road tax for ICE (just like for EVs), how would we now treat this road tax for a fueling cost analysis?

I already answered that question here:

No, it's not. You logic only makes sense if ICE vehicles had to pay the same fee that EVs do at registration.

If they did then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Thanks for proving our point???

 

[ctenidae]

I guess by your logic, I shouldn't own either of my EVs and I'm therefore ignorant, easily manipulated and uneducated.

No, by my logic if you decide not to buy an EV based on this article you are ignorant and easily manipulated. If you decide to buy one in spite of it being more expensive because of some other manipulative article, then you are also ignorant and easily manipulated.

If you got an EV because after considering the factors that are most important to you it makes sense to drive one, then you are educated and harder to manipulate.

I think you and I agree that the producers of analysis such as this are pretty terrible people.

 

[RedStallion]

A couple of things:
Rather than the cost of electricity, I do the cost per mile. I have a meter before the charging unit and at the end of the month, I note the amount for that month. My electric bill arrives about the same time, so I know the rate. (July was $0.126/kw). Then the mileage for the month of July resulted in $.0375/mile. ((KW used X rate per KW)/Miles driven)

Also the charging unit can be claimed on your tax return if you qualify. That reduces the initial cost of the unit which is a one-time cost.

Your electricity rates seem to be much lower than the average, and your efficiency is higher than the average. In my case it's about $0.055/mile assuming I charge at home. Once you need a fast charger on the road that number increases 4x.
More importantly, this number doesn't tell you the total cost of ownership, which is the only cost that matters.

 

[Arsenic17]

They are skewing the results on both sides of the argument. Not sure how they could get it that wrong unless there was political motivation?

They are using a gas price of ~$3.10/gallon and an electricity price of ~$0.38/kWh. The average US gas price is in fact $3.86 right now, while average electricity price is $0.17.

Reality:
It takes $13.78 per 100 miles to fill up your Subaru Outback or Equinox right now.
It takes $5.61 per 100 miles to fill up your Mach-E.

So... Gas car is 2.5x more expensive.

The only time electric vehicles are more expensive is when using public chargers, and usually only DCFC which are ~$0.45. That bumps up the Mach-E 100 mile fill-up to $14.52, less than 10% more than gas fill up.

 

[superdave80]

If they did then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So the EV road tax would suddenly NOT be a related-to-fuel tax, even though nothing had changed in the EV tax? How does that work?

And just to prove my point a little more, I'll give you a real world example of how the actual EV road tax works, and how it doesn't relate at all to fuel.

I pay $200 'related-to-fuel' tax. I then proceed to put 10 kWh into my vehicle.

According to you, my 'related to fuel tax' is $20/kWh!

But don't worry, by the time I put 100 kWh in, it has dropped to $2/kWh.
At 1000 kWh, it's $0.20/kWh
At 3000 kWh (about 12k miles), it's .07/kWh

So the less fuel I use, the higher my tax per fuel unit? And the more I use fuel, the lower my tax per fuel unit? It's almost as if how much fuel I use has no relationship to this tax.

 

[VegasWeezy]

A couple of things:
Rather than the cost of electricity, I do the cost per mile. I have a meter before the charging unit and at the end of the month, I note the amount for that month. My electric bill arrives about the same time, so I know the rate. (July was $0.126/kw). Then the mileage for the month of July resulted in $.0375/mile. ((KW used X rate per KW)/Miles driven)

Also the charging unit can be claimed on your tax return if you qualify. That reduces the initial cost of the unit which is a one-time cost.

After 1 year of ownership, my cost per mile for charging (home, DCFC, L2, wherever) is $0.0459/mile. My additional cost per mile for the EVSE and new outlet I had installed for the L2 EVSE (amortizing each over 5 years, then dividing that 1 year amortization by miles driven in the first year) is another $0.0205. There are no EV taxes or surcharges here that I'm aware of, and I didn't get any credit or rebate for my EVSE installation, so no additional costs to add there.

So my total cost per mile is $0.0664.
As noted previously, an ICE vehicle getting 35mpg here (with an average cost per gallon of $4.19) would cost $0.1197 per mile. So 80% more expensive and that's IF you got 35mpg.

Disclaimer: As previously mentioned, our energy costs ($0.167/kWh) are below the national average and our gas prices are above the national average.

 

[Mirak]

Riddle me this: If tomorrow the states decided to do away with the gas tax, and instead impose the same vehicle registration/road tax for ICE (just like for EVs), how would we now treat this road tax for a fueling cost analysis?

Well, you could either include it for both vehicles, or not include it for both vehicles. Because it would make no difference to the comparison. Because it would be the same for both vehicles.

What you can’t do is include the fee for one vehicle as a fueling expense, and hide it from the other vehicle as a “cost of ownership,” simply because it is assessed differently. The purpose is the fee is the same. It is assessed at registration of EVs because they don’t buy gas and therefore can’t pay it on the gas.

 

[AZBill]

Same goes for the $30k they forked out on solar then attempting to claim that they charge "for free".

Yep, this is yet another example of "faulty math". Everytime I see someone post about free electricity from solar, I ask them where I can get the free panels and free installation. So far, no one has answered that.

 

[devmach-e]

Your electricity rates seem to be much lower than the average, and your efficiency is higher than the average. In my case it's about $0.055/mile assuming I charge at home. Once you need a fast charger on the road that number increases 4x.
More importantly, this number doesn't tell you the total cost of ownership, which is the only cost that matters.

I know that for me, charging at EA as a guest is only about 2x more expensive. I'm paying about 9.3 cents per mile charging at home with an efficiency of 3 miles per kWh. At EA, I'd be paying about 18 cents per mile at guest rates.

 

[Fins160]

Agreed that this article makes no sense, even using "worst case" math.

I have been tracking this every month since I got my car in late November. I have saved $951 in 7 months including both home and (infrequent) fast charging on road trips. I am averaging $0.03 per mile (electricity off-peak in AZ is $0.08 per kWh ) in my 2022 MME Select RWD SR, compared against my Honda Odyssey's (previous family car) 20mpg at $4 a gallon. That's a target savings of $1630 a year.

As far as vehicle cost, an equivalent Ford vehicle as far as seating and trim would be a Ford Edge Titanium, 2022 MSRP $44595. After my tax rebate, my out the door for my MME was $44548, a difference of $50. I will note the Ford Edge is overpriced against the competition and would never buy one.

The Edge gets 21mpg city (most of our driving), so I would continue to get an advantage on top of that for $1630 a year. That means in the 10 years of ownership, I could potentially anticipate saving $16,000-$17,000, not including the cost of maintenance and repairs on ICE vs BEV.

 

[Fins160]

Also it looks like this isn't the first time the Andersen Economic Group has done a hit job on EV costs: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/26/about-that-scary-evs-cost-more-to-fuel-study-not/

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