GTPE extra torque

[BigMach-E]

If Ford is keeping us from drag racing with the 5 second cut off what is Dodge going to do with their future ev muscle cars? Why can Teslas run full throttle all day long without problems? Very disappointing for sure.

They can’t. The Plaid needs about 10-15 minutes to get into “Cheetah” mode. We honestly don’t know very much about long term degradation of components on most of the T cars with repeated full throttle events at this point. We do know the stock brakes fail very quickly with the Plaid, and it I s far worse thing than not being able to go fast is not being able to stop.

My dad told me a long time ago, “getting the car moving is always less important than getting the car to stop”. Te$la, with the plaid variants, failed to consider this. I’m very glad Ford, with the GTPE didn’t skimp on brakes (Brembo is quite good)

Listen, Ford has been very conservative, and rightly so, this is still newish tech (approx 15 years at absolute most of “performance” level EVs across all brands). Ford is very new to this, legitimately have had a “performance” rated EV out on the market for 3 years tops.

Ford’s likely perspective: “we have seen catastrophic failure during testing at certain ambient temperatures, we don’t have enough temp sensors where it counts in the vehicle. We can’t go back to the drawing board and get a commercial product out there in time”.
The result is what you have.

Listen, as someone who has gone through two HVJB failures in two MME in less than two years (granted, this is a design flaw, simply having peak 1000+ A peak being pushed through contact points that are rated for 800 A) is bad design, I don’t mind the 5 second limitation very much. I am very interested if finding out what @Greanhouse finds out.

I will not do any modifications until my warranty runs out, and I have a suitable replacement vehicle (the MME is my daily) but after the warranty elapses, I might drop the pack, upgrade the bus bars, add significant temp sensors and cooling protocols in all the contact points that are likely to melt, load a customized BMS, unlock max RPMs of the motors, see what this thing could have done. I’m going to wait for other brave souls to blaze the trail. For now, it’s a family friendly EV with serious performance for 5 seconds, which I am cool with. Accept the limitation until one knows what the consequences of straying from the limitation is.

Final two points: the MME was intended for a general audience, and a general audience wants a vehicle that just works primarily, everything else is secondary. The MME GTPE offers shocking performance for 5 seconds at a time, handles way better than other EVs of similar/better performance, and is put together really well.

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[Auto Motive]

They can’t. The Plaid needs about 10-15 minutes to get into “Cheetah” mode. We honestly don’t know very much about long term degradation of components on most of the T cars with repeated full throttle events at this point. We do know the stock brakes fail very quickly with the Plaid, and it I s far worse thing than not being able to go fast is not being able to stop.

My dad told me a long time ago, “getting the car moving is always less important than getting the car to stop”. Te$la, with the plaid variants, failed to consider this. I’m very glad Ford, with the GTPE didn’t skimp on brakes (Brembo is quite good)

Listen, Ford has been very conservative, and rightly so, this is still newish tech (approx 15 years at absolute most of “performance” level EVs across all brands). Ford is very new to this, legitimately have had a “performance” rated EV out on the market for 3 years tops.

Ford’s likely perspective: “we have seen catastrophic failure during testing at certain ambient temperatures, we don’t have enough temp sensors where it counts in the vehicle. We can’t go back to the drawing board and get a commercial product out there in time”.
The result is what you have.

Listen, as someone who has gone through two HVJB failures in two MME in less than two years (granted, this is a design flaw, simply having peak 1000+ A peak being pushed through contact points that are rated for 800 A) is bad design, I don’t mind the 5 second limitation very much. I am very interested if finding out what @Greanhouse finds out.

I will not do any modifications until my warranty runs out, and I have a suitable replacement vehicle (the MME is my daily) but after the warranty elapses, I might drop the pack, upgrade the bus bars, add significant temp sensors and cooling protocols in all the contact points that are likely to melt, load a customized BMS, unlock max RPMs of the motors, see what this thing could have done. I’m going to wait for other brave souls to blaze the trail. For now, it’s a family friendly EV with serious performance for 5 seconds, which I am cool with. Accept the limitation until one knows what the consequences of straying from the limitation is.

Final two points: the MME was intended for a general audience, and a general audience wants a vehicle that just works primarily, everything else is secondary. The MME GTPE offers shocking performance for 5 seconds at a time, handles way better than other EVs of similar/better performance, and is put together really well.

Model y performance runs full throttle without problems. Why mention the plaid $110k when comparing our GTPE? It's completely different in,power management.

 

[BigMach-E]

Model y performance runs full throttle without problems. Why mention the plaid $110k when comparing our GTPE? It's completely different in,power management.

You said “Teslas”, you didn’t specify Model Y Performance.

 

[Mach1E]

Model y performance runs full throttle without problems. Why mention the plaid $110k when comparing our GTPE? It's completely different in,power management.

I’m still not convinced we can’t run full power.

We do know Ford won’t let us.

But until someone actually removes our limiters to see if anything breaks….. we are all speculating. And since ZERO GTs have broken due to “too much power,” we know we are currently nowhere near our actual limits.

 

[breeves002]

I’m still not convinced we can’t run full power.

We do know Ford won’t let us.

But until someone actually removes our limiters to see if anything breaks….. we are all speculating. And since ZERO GTs have broken due to “too much power,” we know we are currently nowhere near our actual limits.

How are you not convinced? Have you read the datapoints many users on this forum have collected? Some of Mach_Lee's is the most compelling. The bus bars on the battery are designed for about 200HP continuous. This is why the 5 second limit exists, this is why you can't get more power out of the motors. It really is simple. There's no speculation here it is simple physics. The battery pack is NOT designed for higher constant current therefore Ford doesn't allow us to have it.

 

[Mach1E]

How are you not convinced? Have you read the datapoints many users on this forum have collected? Some of Mach_Lee's is the most compelling. The bus bars on the battery are designed for about 200HP continuous. This is why the 5 second limit exists, this is why you can't get more power out of the motors. It really is simple. There's no speculation here it is simple physics. The battery pack is NOT designed for higher constant current therefore Ford doesn't allow us to have it.

Greanhouse covered most of the reasons, but it’s for the reason I already stated: ZERO Mach E GTs have broken due to too much power.

None, zero, zippo, nada.

That tells me we are nowhere near the “real limit.”

We don’t need 480 hp or 562 hp “constant.”

We just need it for about 12 seconds……. The amount of time it would take us to hit 124 mph.

I would also bet that 200 hp is almost exactly what it would take to maintain 124 mph as well.

 

[breeves002]

Greanhouse covered most of the reasons, but it’s for the reason I already stated: ZERO Mach E GTs have broken due to too much power.

None, zero, zippo, nada.

That tells me we are nowhere near the “real limit.”

We don’t need 480 hp or 562 hp “constant.”

We just need it for about 12 seconds……. The amount of time it would take us to hit 124 mph.

I would also bet that 200 hp is almost exactly what it would take to maintain 124 mph as well.

I mean all of the HVBJBs that have died...even some post recall ones? So I'd say yes, several have died from "too much power". Luckily none have burned to the ground...

12 seconds of 1050A in a wire the size of your pinky (approx 2ga). 2 gauge wire has approximately a 200A continuous limit. So what Ford does is averages the power to adjust the limit. If you use too much in a given time (time for wire to cool) then it will limit. It keeps limiting more until it can give the bus bars (wire as I'm calling it) a chance to cool. It really is simple physics.

Because GT's have not burned to the ground means the software is working correctly. There is probably some margin for error so they could likely give you 6 seconds maybe but 12? No way. You really want your car to catch on fire don't you. 1050A through a 200A rated wire for 12 seconds? Let's propose this was possible without melting the insulation off of the bus bars (I don't think it is). In that case you would have to limit to sub 100A for quite a while to cool it back off.

You wouldn't be able to maintain 200hp after 12 seconds because you'd need even less to allow it to cool. I'm pretty dang sure that insulation would be melted though.

 

[Mach1E]

I mean all of the HVBJBs that have died...even some post recall ones? So I'd say yes, several have died from "too much power". Luckily none have burned to the ground...

12 seconds of 1050A in a wire the size of your pinky (approx 2ga). 2 gauge wire has approximately a 200A continuous limit. So what Ford does is averages the power to adjust the limit. If you use too much in a given time (time for wire to cool) then it will limit. It keeps limiting more until it can give the bus bars (wire as I'm calling it) a chance to cool. It really is simple physics.

Because GT's have not burned to the ground means the software is working correctly. There is probably some margin for error so they could likely give you 6 seconds maybe but 12? No way. You really want your car to catch on fire don't you. 1050A through a 200A rated wire for 12 seconds? Let's propose this was possible without melting the insulation off of the bus bars (I don't think it is). In that case you would have to limit to sub 100A for quite a while to cool it back off.

You wouldn't be able to maintain 200hp after 12 seconds because you'd need even less to allow it to cool. I'm pretty dang sure that insulation would be melted though.

Sorry but no.

The HVJB failures happened due to a bad design. They fail on regular Mach Es due to arching.

Has literally nothing to do with the GT, the 5 second limit, or too much horsepower.

And don’t use the ridiculous “burn to the ground” hyperbole. That’s not a risk for us anymore than it is for an ICE vehicle making more horsepower.

Why do people seem to assume that heat = fire with BEVs?

 

[breeves002]

Sorry but no.

The HVJB failures happened due to a bad design. They fail on regular Mach Es due to arching.

Has literally nothing to do with the GT, the 5 second limit, or too much horsepower.

And don’t use the ridiculous “burn to the ground” hyperbole. That’s not a risk for us anymore than it is for an ICE vehicle making more horsepower.

Why do people seem to assume that heat = fire with BEVs?

I'm saying new HVBJB failures not the OG design. We've seen a handful. Also "arching"? Did you mean "arcing"? They didn't fail directly due to "arcing". They failed directly because of excessive HEAT (causing other issues), and in almost all cases it seems causing the + contractor to weld itself shut.

I prefer to look at it physically which is current flow, not looking at the energy converted into torque. Why do selects not have many HVBJB failures? LESS CURRENT = LESS HEAT! It really is plain simple physics here you're denying.

Heat = fire with BEV batteries....this is a chemical physical fact. I'm not sure if you've got any experience with batteries, specifically lithium batteries, but you may want to do some research. Hot things in a battery pack absolutely increases the risk of a fire.

Go get yourself a 2 gauge wire and a 1000A load tester. Let me know how hot it gets in 12 seconds. Better yet see if you can find the actual bus bars out of a wrecked mach e. Can just test it yourself. Put me to shame because I'm totally wrong obviously.

 

[Mach1E]

I'm saying new HVBJB failures not the OG design. We've seen a handful. Also "arching"? Did you mean "arcing"? They didn't fail directly due to "arcing". They failed directly because of excessive HEAT (causing other issues), and in almost all cases it seems causing the + contractor to weld itself shut.

I prefer to look at it physically which is current flow, not looking at the energy converted into torque. Why do selects not have many HVBJB failures? LESS CURRENT = LESS HEAT! It really is plain simple physics here you're denying.

Heat = fire with BEV batteries....this is a chemical physical fact. I'm not sure if you've got any experience with batteries, specifically lithium batteries, but you may want to do some research. Hot things in a battery pack absolutely increases the risk of a fire.

Go get yourself a 2 gauge wire and a 1000A load tester. Let me know how hot it gets in 12 seconds. Better yet see if you can find the actual bus bars out of a wrecked mach e. Can just test it yourself. Put me to shame because I'm totally wrong obviously.

?‍
This is the kind of scientific thought that led people to believe that flies come from rotting meat.

It’s kinda scientific, and kinda logical, but still wrong.

Mach Es are in no danger of catching fire from power nor heat. Quit bringing it up. It’s just not true.

Now if the batteries get punctured….. different story.

And again, the HVJB is a completely different issue. It’s NOT horsepower related. If it were, only GTs would have failures. It’s a bad design and it’s NOT the reason for the 5 second limit. Ford didn’t figure it out until much later.

The fact remains that you (and I) have no clue what the actual limits of the GT hardware are. Stop pretending like you do. We know it’s not at its limit.

How much more power could it handle? Not sure. But we are nowhere near in danger of bursting into flames.

I do agree on one thing though, heat is the limiter.

 

[phil]

?‍
This is the kind of scientific thought that led people to believe that flies come from rotting meat.

Yes, that theory seems quite silly now that we know flies are actually spontaneously generated from phlogiston.

 

[kpr711]

Source?

Or is this just speculation?

My guess is they actually CAN handle it. Not forever, but a few more seconds certainty seems possible.

We are talking about an increase of less than 20% in horsepower that requires ZERO increase in tq. (Just allowing for more tq for more rpm). It’s really not that much more than we already have.

Peak tq happens around 4000 rpm now (around 40 mph).

To get 562hp, it only need to extend to 4650 rpm (around 47 mph).

That’ll happen in much less than a second.

Unfortunately they’re the same limit, just triggered by different things.

Things that limit power-
time- 5 sec of full throttle from a stop
Speed- power limited above 72 mph
External temp- too hot, too cold
Battery temp- too hot, too cold
Battery charge- too low
Discharge rate over time- from any of the above back to back
Mode- unbridled extend

I wish all we had to complain about was a 5 second timer.
[/QUOT

I’m still not convinced we can’t run full power.

We do know Ford won’t let us.

But until someone actually removes our limiters to see if anything breaks….. we are all speculating. And since ZERO GTs have broken due to “too much power,” we know we are currently nowhere near our actual limits.

Do you really think you know more than Ford engineers, designers etc...this whole conversation, very entertaining, reminds me of football fans who all think they know more than the coaches and Gm's. Fun talk, fun to speculate but you really don't know, as none of them are getting hired by these multi-billion dollar entities for their superior knowledge.
With all do respect, if you don't like it, sell it and get a tesla, or something else, nobody forced you to buy it.
You seem to have some knowledge of the systems in play, more than me, but lighten up Francis.

 

[Mach1E]

So much good stuff in this post.

Unlikely that engineers settled on the horsepower limit of my last car (Chevy SS). It came with a 415hp version of the LS3. Why 415 and not the 436 hp version that the Corvettes get? Likely a marketing decision.

That was fine though, after a simple tune I had 450 hp. The same tune gets the Corvette……. 450 hp.

I really hope the aftermarket tuners crack the code. Eventually they’ll have to or go out of business.

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