Has Ford published a list of committed Model e Dealers yet?

[Kamuelaflyer]

It requires the utility’s involvement to send that level of power to the property. When I say install I’m referring to the whole project cost. Actually we agree.

This is true. Complicated does not equal difficult though.

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[Shayne]

Yes it is being forced on them to stay in business long term as the push is to move away from ICE. Also no way an Ford EV dealer can open in town with the small level of EV’S at this time. Business decisions should make financial sense and not just be at the whim of a so called “Visionary”.

I have not been following dealer certification so sorry for the question if already answered/understood.

If the dealers do not have the cash or do not want to spend the cash to meet Ford's "new" criteria they may not be able to service the electric vehicles they have already sold?

 

[dbsb3233]

The document I saw doesn't require DCFC. Just 5 L2 @ 80A or 4 L2 @ 80A plus 2 more at 32A. Either one will meet the requirent.

I found that confusing in one of the posted documents too, whether it really means "you have to install a 120kW DCFC", or "if you install DCFC, it has to be 120kW".

I think one of the previous posted documents said they HAVE to install the DCFC to remain EV certified though. Pretty sure I saw that somewhere.

 

[SnBGC]

I found that confusing in one of the posted documents too, whether it really means "you have to install a 120kW DCFC", or "if you install DCFC, it has to be 120kW".

I think one of the previous posted documents said they HAVE to install the DCFC to remain EV certified though. Pretty sure I saw that somewhere.

It was revised to say DCFC is NOT required but if the dealer wanted to get one then it must be at least 120kW (shared) with two plugs. Preferred is 240kW but neither are required.

Most dealers are requesting quotes with DCFC because they didn't read the newest version of the document or just want to budget for the capital expense now. We are making them all aware if the newest version of the regulation just so they make the best decision for themselves.

 

[dbsb3233]

Selling gas has little profit for the stations. All their profit comes from people spending a few minutes buying drinks, snacks and cigarettes. Even with the high volume of ICE vehicles filling up, the business model of gas stations is built around the convenience store (in and out shopping without requiring space or staff for long visits).



The dealers do have the vision. There's no profit in DCFC. Spending additional money to improve the experience is just a sunk cost and they know that. Look at how much electricity has to be marked up to not lose money for charging. Look at the volume per pump/charger difference between gas and electricity. One pump can serve a car every 5 minutes whereas one charger one car every 40 minutes. How much mark up is required to achieve the same roi on electricity versus gas when volume per unit is 1/8? Snacks and drinks and test drives are not going to entice people to a DCFC station.

You need locations which occupy people for 40-60 minutes such as a sit down meal or shopping the person already had planned. For people on road trips, they just want a charger along their route, not a few mile detour to auto row.

Exactly. There's a HUGE difference in volume (foot traffic) between gas sales and DCFC. A handful of gas pumps can generate hundreds of customers per day coming through. While a pair of DCFC chargers might generate just a dozen or two customers.

Those thinking that installing DCFC will act as a customer magnet similar to gas does to support a dedicated convenience store (or some other host business) are failing to do that math. There's no way. At best it can bring in a few EXTRA customers a day to an already self-sustaining business model. But that's not nearly enough to jusify the high expense.

Unless maybe you're talking a mega station on a road trip route like Baker CA that has 50 chargers (Tesla + EA).

 

[dbsb3233]

It was revised to say DCFC is NOT required but if the dealer wanted to get one then it must be at least 120kW (shared) with two plugs. Preferred is 240kW but neither are required.

Most dealers are requesting quotes with DCFC because they didn't read the newest version of the document or just want to budget for the capital expense now. We are making them all aware if the newest version of the regulation just so they make the best decision for themselves.

If that's the case and Ford dropped the DCFC requirement, it completely changes this whole discussion.

 

[AKgrampy]

I have not been following dealer certification so sorry for the question if already answered/understood.

If the dealers do not have the cash or do not want to spend the cash to meet Ford's "new" criteria they may not be able to service the electric vehicles they have already sold?

I am not 100% sure on that issue. I have not been following the issue closely enough but I seem to remember there is another opportunity to make a final decision in like 18 month to 2 years. My thought, which I realize may be no better than anyone else’s, is why spend the time and money to remain EV certified for repairs when you can no longer sell the vehicle? I would also think Ford would no longer allow them to work on EV’S but perhaps Ford will only stop sales. Of course, in my case, there is only one dealer for 359 miles so if no sales then no cars to repair anyways. I guess a Ford EV dealer may open locally in the future if the current dealer opts out. Certainly interesting times for rural/small dealerships

 

[SnBGC]

I have not been following dealer certification so sorry for the question if already answered/understood.

If the dealers do not have the cash or do not want to spend the cash to meet Ford's "new" criteria they may not be able to service the electric vehicles they have already sold?

They should be able to continue business as usual. The Ford E program is for future sales of EVs through that facility and involves dealer allocations, online ordering and pricing controls. It is a voluntary program and enrollment deadline is tomorrow. Program takes effect Jan 2024 so they have 1 year to get ready. Dealers that miss the deadline tomorrow will get another chance to enroll in 2025 for program to begin in 2027.

 

[SnBGC]

If that's the case and Ford dropped the DCFC requirement, it completely changes this whole discussion.

Correct.
It was too complicated so they simplified it.
Here is the snip from the Nov 21 document.

 

[SnBGC]

Correct.
It was too complicated so they simplified it.
Here is the snip from the Nov 21 document.

Okay. Correction. I just spoke to the regional rep and he explained that DCFC is still required but the future proofing for increased capacity to 180kW was relaxed. So.....the 120kW unit (dual plug) is still part of the basic requirement.

So to summarize. There is a basic L2 requirement, some NEMA 14-50 outlet requirements and a public facing DCFC unit available 24/7.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

If the dealers do not have the cash or do not want to spend the cash to meet Ford's "new" criteria they may not be able to service the electric vehicles they have already sold?

The $64,000 question. @SnBGC makes a good point. We shall see how it all shakes out.

 

[tannerk89]

I’ve been thinking about the push back on Ford’s decision to require chargers for EV certified dealerships. Personally I think Ford, being a private company, should have every right to make whatever requirements they want for franchisees/dealers to sell their product. Also, because the business is split, the Ford Blue dealerships remain intact.

Trying to think about it logically, if you were to create a brand new dealership, a 500k to 1.2m investment is way less than what these dealers had to put in to start up a dealership to sell Fords in the past. The new EV model is to keep little to no inventory on the lot and push ordered vehicles. Where in the past ICE dealership model, dealers had carried way more than 500k to 1.2 million just in inventory alone on their lot. I don’t think this upfront cost is a problem, they just think they’re entitled to sell Ford Electric’s products because it has the name Ford. Ford management seems to be shifting the EV sales model to a smaller showroom only style of dealer. Large dealers that want to sell The new Ford EVs will essentially be building that new showroom/service center model dealership on their complex. No different or less expensive than an existing Ford dealership adding another building/lot and stocking inventory for a different auto manufacturer, like Kia for example. And for future new builds of a Ford EV only dealership, the showroom/service center + DCFC could be strategically located to make the charging destinations make sense.

 

[dbsb3233]

I’ve been thinking about the push back on Ford’s decision to require chargers for EV certified dealerships. Personally I think Ford, being a private company, should have every right to make whatever requirements they want for franchisees/dealers to sell their product. Also, because the business is split, the Ford Blue dealerships remain intact.

Trying to think about it logically, if you were to create a brand new dealership, a 500k to 1.2m investment is way less than what these dealers had to put in to start up a dealership to sell Fords in the past. The new EV model is to keep little to no inventory on the lot and push ordered vehicles. Where in the past ICE dealership model, dealers had carried way more than 500k to 1.2 million just in inventory alone on their lot. I don’t think this upfront cost is a problem, they just think they’re entitled to sell Ford Electric’s products because it has the name Ford. Ford management seems to be shifting the EV sales model to a smaller showroom only style of dealer. Large dealers that want to sell The new Ford EVs will essentially be building that new showroom/service center model dealership on their complex. No different or less expensive than an existing Ford dealership adding another building/lot and stocking inventory for a different auto manufacturer, like Kia for example. And for future new builds of a Ford EV only dealership, the showroom/service center + DCFC could be strategically located to make the charging destinations make sense.

I don't think anyone is saying Ford doesn't have the legal right to attach strings to their franchise agreements. Just whether this string makes sense. Dealerships are generally lousy locations for DCFC.

If new-built EV showrooms become like Tesla showrooms in malls and shopping centers, then fine, make the DCFC requirement apply to just those where it's actually a better fit (shopping centers). But it doesn't make much sense to require it at standard dealerships IMO. That's what many of us are saying. Regardless of whether a dealership can 'afford it' or not.

As a consumer, I'd much prefer the savings for needing less real estate (due to no EV inventory) be passed on to buyers, rather than just shifted over to the cost of dealership-located DCFC where I'm highly unlikely to ever use it. The only time I go to a dealership is to (a) buy a new car, or (b) have my car serviced. Neither of which fit for charging my car, because I don't have the car in my hands!

Now, if a Taco Bell or a Chili's or a Walmart is next door to the dealership, maybe I'll kill the time there during a road trip. But that's only a good fit because of the Taco Bell or Chili's or Walmart, not the dealership. Which means it makes more sense just to co-locate the chargers at the Taco Bell or Chili's or Walmart in the first place.

 

[Shayne]

Okay. Correction. I just spoke to the regional rep and he explained that DCFC is still required but the future proofing for increased capacity to 180kW was relaxed. So.....the 120kW unit (dual plug) is still part of the basic requirement.

So to summarize. There is a basic L2 requirement, some NEMA 14-50 outlet requirements and a public facing DCFC unit available 24/7.

All dealers need a DCFC????? Pad mount transformer and all? Get out of here

I'd say that should be a requirement when they hit a certain volume with a time frame after they hit that volume to get it done. Should be based on volume and let the ones that can service them sell them in the smaller communities. More sales can not hurt and should help adoption.

 

[tannerk89]

I don't think anyone is saying Ford doesn't have the legal right to attach strings to their franchise agreements. Just whether this string makes sense. Dealerships are generally lousy locations for DCFC.

If new-built EV showrooms become like Tesla showrooms in malls and shopping centers, then fine, make the DCFC requirement apply to just those where it's actually a better fit (shopping centers). But it doesn't make much sense to require it at standard dealerships IMO. That's what many of us are saying. Regardless of whether a dealership can 'afford it' or not.

As a consumer, I'd much prefer the savings for needing less real estate (due to no EV inventory) be passed on to buyers, rather than just shifted over to the cost of dealership-located DCFC where I'm highly unlikely to ever use it. The only time I go to a dealership is to (a) buy a new car, or (b) have my car serviced. Neither of which fit for charging my car, because I don't have the car in my hands!

Now, if a Taco Bell or a Chili's or a Walmart is next door to the dealership, maybe I'll kill the time there during a road trip. But that's only a good fit because of the Taco Bell or Chili's or Walmart, not the dealership. Which means it makes more sense just to co-locate the chargers at the Taco Bell or Chili's or Walmart in the first place.

Yeah I agree, doesn’t always make sense. And for those that it doesn’t make sense it’s probably not a huge loss in demand for the dealer to not be able to sell EVs. I don’t like stranding existing owners from being able to service though.

My local Ford dealerships are probably the exception not the rule, but all are essentially on or near a major highway and have walkable food options so they already would be a benefit to have as DCFC stops. Every one of those locations near me would be useful as a DCFC stop and there really aren’t that many chargers in my area, only 1 location over 120kW.

Ford dealership locations:

Plug share filtered to >120

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