Help with Understanding Battery/Range Degradation

[jonwitt]

Hi Ford Mustang Mach-E Community!

I’m Jon, a PhD candidate in Chemical Engineering specializing in electrochemistry at the University of Washington. I’m working with folks at a new company in Seattle, Recurrent, with a goal of helping electric vehicle (EV) buyers understand the battery health and range of used electric cars. We are developing machine learning algorithms to predict future battery life and range across all major EV models.

Here’s where I need your help. We’re assembling a group of current EV drivers/enthusiasts who are willing to share anonymous access to their battery range and state of charge data over time in a variety of weather and driving conditions. At the moment, over 2500 EV drivers and enthusiasts have volunteered! In return for signing up, volunteers (you!) get a free monthly battery analytics report as we build up our comparative data. An example report is shown on our website along with an FAQ!

Since we have never worked with a Mach-E, I’m looking for a few volunteers to help us beta-test our ability to connect to and provide reports for Mach-E owners. All you’ll need an active subscription to FordPass. It’s automatic, no work on your end.

If interested, please send an email to [email protected] and I’ll be able to assist you through there.

So if you drive an EV and really want everyone else to drive an EV in the future, please consider volunteering your data. Let me know if I can answer any questions about the study, program or the company.

Jon Witt
Linked In

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[macchiaz-o]

@jonwitt,

If I agree to share my vehicle's usage specifics with Recurrent, how might this impact the resale value of my vehicle?

Let's say that dealers sign up with Recurrent to get vehicle specific data reports for cars they are considering buying. If, according to Recurrent's reporting, my battery is in relatively poor shape to others, won't this significantly impact its perceived value to the buyer?

 

[macchiaz-o]

I'll add that I can see how the opposite effect is also possible. And even probable right now, since only 10 or so dealerships have signed up with Recurrent so far.

So by having the report, I can present it to a potential buyer if it presents a positive image.

 

[jonwitt]

@macchiaz-o
Hi Jonathan,
Good question! The information that you share with us is only shared with a dealer or potential buyer if the vehicle owner (you) proactively choose to share it.

A few folks have told us that they have used it in that way!

Best,
Jon Witt

 

[sockmeister]

Hi Ford Mustang Mach-E Community!

I’m Jon, a PhD candidate in Chemical Engineering specializing in electrochemistry at the University of Washington. I’m working with folks at a new company in Seattle, Recurrent, with a goal of helping electric vehicle (EV) buyers understand the battery health and range of used electric cars. We are developing machine learning algorithms to predict future battery life and range across all major EV models.

Here’s where I need your help. We’re assembling a group of current EV drivers/enthusiasts who are willing to share anonymous access to their battery range and state of charge data over time in a variety of weather and driving conditions. At the moment, over 2500 EV drivers and enthusiasts have volunteered! In return for signing up, volunteers (you!) get a free monthly battery analytics report as we build up our comparative data. An example report is shown on our website along with an FAQ!

Since we have never worked with a Mach-E, I’m looking for a few volunteers to help us beta-test our ability to connect to and provide reports for Mach-E owners. All you’ll need an active subscription to FordPass. It’s automatic, no work on your end.

If interested, please send an email to [email protected] and I’ll be able to assist you through there.

So if you drive an EV and really want everyone else to drive an EV in the future, please consider volunteering your data. Let me know if I can answer any questions about the study, program or the company.

Jon Witt
Linked In

Jon,
Very interesting! I would be interested in volunteering, once I have a little more information on how the data collection would work.

 

[jonwitt]

Jon,
Very interesting! I would be interested in volunteering, once I have a little more information on how the data collection would work.

I'm happy to hear that you are interested! Let me know what quesitons you have and I'll do my best to answer it. Turns out we need to wait for your MachE to be delivered before we can connect to your vehicle, but that should be soon I hear!

Here are the details on how the connection is established.

We work with SmartCar, which allows us to connect with many different vehicles. Recurrent never actually sees your login credentials themselves.

Roughly speaking, the FordPass credentials that you enter are encrypted and used to get a unique token from Ford - this is similar to other third party such as these Tesla apps (e.g. TezLab, Remote for Tesla, TeslaStats). This token is what allows Recurrent to receive data from your vehicle.

If you were to change your password, or remove access from Recurrent's Disconnect page, Recurrent would no longer be able to pull data from your car.

Let me know if that is what you meant. We ping on average 1-4 times per day during a month and you can request your data at anytime and I'll send you a csv file with it. You also see what data we collect, which currently is odometer, state of charge, status of charging, range estimate.

You can also reach me at [email protected] .

Best,
Jon Witt

 

[macchiaz-o]

I reached out to Recurrent tech support about signing up. At the moment, their linkage to FordPass is not working properly, but I expect they'll have this fixed soon.

I've decided to back away though.

I see no red flags with the business intentions behind Recurrent or its vehicle API service provider, Smartcar. I just have concern with the additional security risk of Smartcar having unlimited access to all aspects of my FordPass account, including billing and remote vehicle controls (unlock and start for instance). They don't need this level of access and I don't want to extend the security risk footprint to them at that level.

Smartcar acts as an API gateway between manufacturer-specific vehicle data access systems and over-the-top services like Recurrent.

Smartcar uses OAuth to issue an access token for my FordPass data to Recurrent. This way, Recurrent never has my FordPass password. That's great, but...

Smartcar itself is NOT using OAuth to acquire a limited-access token to my FordPass account. Instead, they'd store a copy of my email address and account password.

This means that Smartcar would have full access to my account and can do the same sorts of things I can do myself, such as remotely unlocking and starting the vehicle.

If they failed to protect the credentials, then a malicious party would have access to my home and work addresses, Ford billing information, vehicle controls, and more.

I passed along to Smartcar a pointer to the Ford Connected API, which does (or will?) support OAuth. Once they've reworked their gateway to support revocable, limited access (e.g. just travel and battery charge info) to my FordPass account, I will reconsider joining Recurrent.

 

[sockmeister]

I'm happy to hear that you are interested! Let me know what quesitons you have and I'll do my best to answer it. Turns out we need to wait for your MachE to be delivered before we can connect to your vehicle, but that should be soon I hear!

Here are the details on how the connection is established.

We work with SmartCar, which allows us to connect with many different vehicles. Recurrent never actually sees your login credentials themselves.

Roughly speaking, the FordPass credentials that you enter are encrypted and used to get a unique token from Ford - this is similar to other third party such as these Tesla apps (e.g. TezLab, Remote for Tesla, TeslaStats). This token is what allows Recurrent to receive data from your vehicle.

If you were to change your password, or remove access from Recurrent's Disconnect page, Recurrent would no longer be able to pull data from your car.

Let me know if that is what you meant. We ping on average 1-4 times per day during a month and you can request your data at anytime and I'll send you a csv file with it. You also see what data we collect, which currently is odometer, state of charge, status of charging, range estimate.

You can also reach me at [email protected] .

Best,
Jon Witt

Thanks Jon, that's helpful.
How is the data actually collected? That is, does the car log the data, package it, and send it using its mobile connection when pinged 1-4 times per day? Or does this require a paired smartphone which serves to send the data to Recurrent?

Would I be able to withdraw from the study at any time?

And, for how long would you require data collection? A year?

Thanks, and I figured I'd ask these questions in the forum here so others can see what's involved.

 

[sockmeister]

Smartcar itself is NOT using OAuth to acquire a limited-access token to my FordPass account. Instead, they'd store a copy of my email address and account password.

That's valuable insight. Thanks.
That's sort of absurd that they're just storing the username and password instead of using OAuth. I don't like that either.
However, I imagine this scenario is unique to FordPass, since it's new, and they haven't figured out yet how to integrate with the app and get a limited access token. Or, maybe Ford's API doesn't provide for that yet to third party software like SmartCar, which is embarrassing on Ford's part.

@jonwitt Do you know if this is something that's unique to the Mach-E or if you think this will be addressed?

Maybe they'll have that by the time the car launches?

 

[jonwitt]

That's valuable insight. Thanks.
That's sort of absurd that they're just storing the username and password instead of using OAuth. I don't like that either.
However, I imagine this scenario is unique to FordPass, since it's new, and they haven't figured out yet how to integrate with the app and get a limited access token. Or, maybe Ford's API doesn't provide for that yet to third party software like SmartCar, which is embarrassing on Ford's part.

@jonwitt Do you know if this is something that's unique to the Mach-E or if you think this will be addressed?

Maybe they'll have that by the time the car launches?

I'll be sure to dig more into the details with SmartCar tomorrow morning to see in what ways we can address those concerns! I apologize I don't have that level of detailed answer at the moment, since I'm one of the battery scientists on the team.

 

[macchiaz-o]

I'll be sure to dig more into the details with SmartCar tomorrow morning to see in what ways we can address those concerns! I apologize I don't have that level of detailed answer at the moment, since I'm one of the battery scientists on the team.

Awesome, thank you!

Here is the link to Ford's API portal, in case it helps:

https://developer.ford.com/fordconnect

 

[jonwitt]

That's valuable insight. Thanks.
That's sort of absurd that they're just storing the username and password instead of using OAuth. I don't like that either.
However, I imagine this scenario is unique to FordPass, since it's new, and they haven't figured out yet how to integrate with the app and get a limited access token. Or, maybe Ford's API doesn't provide for that yet to third party software like SmartCar, which is embarrassing on Ford's part.

@jonwitt Do you know if this is something that's unique to the Mach-E or if you think this will be addressed?

Maybe they'll have that by the time the car launches?

To answer your other questions, you can Disconnect at any time you'd like. Through our Disconnect Page that I linked before. If you changed your password, then we would also be blocked from collecting data. I took a look at SmartCars response to Jonathan, and looks like SmartCar uses OAuth if the carmaker offers it. I'm not sure of the mechanism by which the data is packaged and sent from the car to SmartCar. I can ask that tomorrow morning too. You also don't need a smartphone to pair either.

How long you stay in the study is up to you, and how long the study exists is up to funding. I'd say at least a year is ideal for capturing all seasons. However, I hope that folks will choose to stay in for the long haul because that will provide the most accurate machine learning predictions for how next year's models, your vehicle, vehicles like it, and beyond will perform in all sorts of conditions, cities, driving behaviors, climates, etc. At least, that is the hypothesis. And so far, thanks to the 2500 vehicles that have joined so far, with many of them being Teslas, Leafs, and Bolts and Volts, all early indicators seem really good for those makes and models.

 

[Bookworm214]

My power company, Santee Cooper, is offering a rebate on EVSEs and one of the requirements is sharing charging data from the EVSE for 5 years.

 

[timbop]

Just so I understand, you want to mine our data for free so you can then analyze and sell it?

 

[zhackwyatt]

I reached out to Recurrent tech support about signing up. At the moment, their linkage to FordPass is not working properly, but I expect they'll have this fixed soon.

I've decided to back away though.

I see no red flags with the business intentions behind Recurrent or its vehicle API service provider, Smartcar. I just have concern with the additional security risk of Smartcar having unlimited access to all aspects of my FordPass account, including billing and remote vehicle controls (unlock and start for instance). They don't need this level of access and I don't want to extend the security risk footprint to them at that level.

Smartcar acts as an API gateway between manufacturer-specific vehicle data access systems and over-the-top services like Recurrent.

Smartcar uses OAuth to issue an access token for my FordPass data to Recurrent. This way, Recurrent never has my FordPass password. That's great, but...

Smartcar itself is NOT using OAuth to acquire a limited-access token to my FordPass account. Instead, they'd store a copy of my email address and account password.

This means that Smartcar would have full access to my account and can do the same sorts of things I can do myself, such as remotely unlocking and starting the vehicle.

If they failed to protect the credentials, then a malicious party would have access to my home and work addresses, Ford billing information, vehicle controls, and more.

I passed along to Smartcar a pointer to the Ford Connected API, which does (or will?) support OAuth. Once they've reworked their gateway to support revocable, limited access (e.g. just travel and battery charge info) to my FordPass account, I will reconsider joining Recurrent.

PSA: NEVER give a site a password for another site. Oauth is definately the way to go if you want to explicitly share information from one site to another.

Which is why I also never sign in with Facebook/Google on other websites. They can track you.

Edit: grammar

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