Keep it or return my MachE 2021 FE?

[Blue highway]

Heat pumps are great when you need 30 or less degrees of added heat. When the need is much greater, then they are just some minimal extra weight to be towed around.

Because heat pumps scavange heat from motors and battery, they are more efficient than resistive heat at any temperature most of us encounter...

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/heat-pumps#:~:text=The heat pump was able,heater at extremely low temperatures.

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[Alan]

Because heat pumps scavange heat from motors and battery, they are more efficient than resistive heat at any temperature most of us encounter...

Heat pumps scavenge heat from the air flowing through the condenser coils. If the battery and motor(s) are heating the same air that is flowing through the condenser, then yes, otherwise no. I seriously doubt the rear motor is contributing any heat to the heat pump in the front of the car. Further, I would like to see independent sources for the tables shown, as they do not look like any I have seen from heat pump studies. Heat pumps can raise temperatures up to about 30 degrees efficiently, and are nearly worthless for a 50 degrees heat rise. Heat pumps can work with resistive heat to get a comfortable cabin even when the ambient is below zero, but the efficiency drops as the temperature difference increases, and likely much more than those tables suggest. I say suggest because the HUGE unknown is the temperature difference as the cabin temperature is not given in those charts, and likely is not being held constant.

 

[Mach1E]

About $25K left. 2021 FE extended range. About 25K miles.

So then those are the only numbers that matter.

Would you buy your used car with 25k miles in current condition for $25k?

Or would you rather buy a different car for $25k or more?

How we would answer that question won’t necessarily help your decision.

Personally? It I wanted a 2021 Mach E still in your situation I would take the opportunity to upgrade models to a premium 4X or GTPE for not much more money.

 

[Scooby24]

So then those are the only numbers that matter.

Would you buy your used car with 25k miles in current condition for $25k?

Or would you rather buy a different car for $25k or more?

How we would answer that question won’t necessarily help your decision.

Personally? It I wanted a 2021 Mach E still in your situation I would take the opportunity to upgrade models to a premium 4X or GTPE for not much more money.

This seems like a solid consideration if you can find one that was taken care of and had the big ticket issues resolved.

Most of the used ones I am finding being sold in the price range were buybacks...maybe they were fixed properly, maybe not.

 

[Blue highway]

Heat pumps scavenge heat from the air flowing through the condenser coils. If the battery and motor(s) are heating the same air that is flowing through the condenser, then yes, otherwise no. I seriously doubt the rear motor is contributing any heat to the heat pump in the front of the car. Further, I would like to see independent sources for the tables shown, as they do not look like any I have seen from heat pump studies. Heat pumps can raise temperatures up to about 30 degrees efficiently, and are nearly worthless for a 50 degrees heat rise. Heat pumps can work with resistive heat to get a comfortable cabin even when the ambient is below zero, but the efficiency drops as the temperature difference increases, and likely much more than those tables suggest. I say suggest because the HUGE unknown is the temperature difference as the cabin temperature is not given in those charts, and likely is not being held constant.

Independent data? please read the link I posted. There are more tables in the article that is linked... none of which are notional BTW. You may also want to look up the "octovalve" on youtube. Heatpumps in cars are used to scavenge heat in ways you are not imagining.

or you can double down on heatpumps not working...

 

[dbsb3233]

This is such a variable decision from person to person. Some people can't stand not to upgrade regularly to get the latest and greatest. Others like to maximize the value and get as much out of it as they can. I've always been in the latter camp with cars. Although in my older years now I *can* afford to splurge more if I really want (thus why I bought a $59,000 Mach-E in the first place).

Still, I have no compelling reason to get rid of this car. Mine will be 4yo in Feb (67,000 miles) and we still love it. Still looks and feels like a near-new car, other than the usual rock chips on the front and being on it's 3rd windshield (it's a rock magnet). Maintenance costs are almost non-existent other than tires and windshields.

Many of us here have gotten in the habit of researching new EVs. New features always sound tempting, but until you see full reviews, it's easy to not notice the features that are sometimes missing. The MME may not be the best in every area, but it's still really good in most ways. Especially the Premiums.

It's falling behind the curve on DCFC charging times relative to newer EVs, but as someone who puts on 75% the miles doing long road trips, I can honestly say that's no big deal to me. I'm just fine with doing three 30 minute DCFCs in a 500 mile day. It's such a habit now that I'd probably still stop that long even if it only took 15 minutes.

 

[Scooby24]

Independent data? please read the link I posted. There are more tables in the article that is linked... none of which are notional BTW. You may also want to look up the "octovalve" on youtube. Heatpumps in cars are used to scavenge heat in ways you are not imagining.

or you can double down on heatpumps not working...

Isn't a heatpump and an octovalve technically idependent of each other and dependent on how the manufacturer scavenges heat? EG: for 2023.5, Ford started scavenging heat from the motors. Couldn't you have everything in place with an octovalve type implementation and still being using a PTC heater versus a heatpump?

 

[Blue highway]

Isn't a heatpump and an octovalve technically idependent of each other and dependent on how the manufacturer scavenges heat? EG: for 2023.5, Ford started scavenging heat from the motors. Couldn't you have everything in place with an octovalve type implementation and still being using a PTC heater versus a heatpump?

yeah an octovalve is the way coolant is routed around including through the heat pump in a Tesla... it's interesting engineering is that it exists to enable heat scavagning. The Octovalve has been around for a few years to there are teardowns on youtube and a lot written about it. Fords solution is newer, so I haven't seen a teardown yet... but the idea is the same... to scavange heat from things other than the air... like the motors.

BTW, there is still a resistive heater in there so that you stay toasty warm.

 

[Dear_OP]

You can get newer used Mach E for less than your 2021. However you know the history of your 2021 while you are rolling the dice with the other.
I think 2024 upwards saw the most updates.

 

[Alan]

Independent data? please read the link I posted. There are more tables in the article that is linked... none of which are notional BTW. You may also want to look up the "octovalve" on youtube. Heatpumps in cars are used to scavenge heat in ways you are not imagining.

or you can double down on heatpumps not working...

The octovalve is a Tesla patented fantastic valve exclusive to Tesla. The Mach-e by comparison is a mess of an AC plumbing job. Ford knows how to build them reliably, but it is still a rat's nest of plumbing with far less versatility and efficiency than the octovalve gives Tesla.

When I asked for independent data, I was actually asking for more trustworthy data, and more complete data, not just more data from a company that is not rigorous with their claims. I don't care about charts that give more precision that is possible without actual testing, and don't give adequate data for understanding the data given such as which vehicle is being tested, and at what cabin temperature the tests are made. A 53% efficiency gain over resistive heating from -17 degrees with an unknown cabin temperature is 98.275548% meaningless. I have no interest in diving further down in a company that would present such information in the first place.

I never said heat pumps don't work. I said they don't work well in extreme cold, which they don't. They work GREAT in temps above 20 or so. I have a heat pump in my home. My first EV had separate heat pumps for the battery/motor and for the cabin. They will add value for the Mach-e in temperate climates, perhaps even for a good part of the year in Chicago. They will be virtually worthless in an Alaska winter. They will add minimal value in the Arizona deserts, although there are a few weeks a year here where we see morning lows in the 30s and 40s and the heat pump will work well then. I would be happier with heated rear seats, however.

 

[Blue highway]

The octovalve is a Tesla patented fantastic valve exclusive to Tesla. The Mach-e by comparison is a mess of an AC plumbing job. Ford knows how to build them reliably, but it is still a rat's nest of plumbing with far less versatility and efficiency than the octovalve gives Tesla.

When I asked for independent data, I was actually asking for more trustworthy data, and more complete data, not just more data from a company that is not rigorous with their claims. I don't care about charts that give more precision that is possible without actual testing, and don't give adequate data for understanding the data given such as which vehicle is being tested, and at what cabin temperature the tests are made. A 53% efficiency gain over resistive heating from -17 degrees with an unknown cabin temperature is 98.275548% meaningless. I have no interest in diving further down in a company that would present such information in the first place.

I never said heat pumps don't work. I said they don't work well in extreme cold, which they don't. They work GREAT in temps above 20 or so. I have a heat pump in my home. My first EV had separate heat pumps for the battery/motor and for the cabin. They will add value for the Mach-e in temperate climates, perhaps even for a good part of the year in Chicago. They will be virtually worthless in an Alaska winter. They will add minimal value in the Arizona deserts, although there are a few weeks a year here where we see morning lows in the 30s and 40s and the heat pump will work well then. I would be happier with heated rear seats, however.

you mean like the studies below all linked in the post above ....

NREL/CP-5400-63430. Posted with permission. Presented at the SAE 2015 World Congress & Exhibition, 21–23 April 2015, Detroit, Michigan.

https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle-Range-Testing-Report.pdf

https://asmedigitalcollection.asme....rimental-Investigation-on-Heating-Performance

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435123003513#bib1

 

[Alan]

you mean like the studies below all linked in the post above ....

NREL/CP-5400-63430. Posted with permission. Presented at the SAE 2015 World Congress & Exhibition, 21–23 April 2015, Detroit, Michigan.

https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle-Range-Testing-Report.pdf

https://asmedigitalcollection.asme....rimental-Investigation-on-Heating-Performance

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435123003513#bib1

From your first link: "Heat pumps are largely ineffective within extremely cold environments. At 20°F, auxiliary resistive heating was likely utilized to maintain cabin temperature."

Your second link gave minimal actual information, and was only investigating temperatures down to 14 degrees F.

The third article is mostly limited to home applications, and clearlly states that heat pump efficiency drops dramatically below 26 degrees F.

None of these links disagree with anything I have said above.

 

[ChuckA]

I am coming up on my 3 year anniversary. Love the car, but the financing is about to run out. I can pay off and keep it or return it. What do others think/do?
Thanks for any feedback.

Is your financing an Options purchase or a lease? It makes a difference in what I’d recommend.

If a lease does it have a buyout? If an Options, what is the interest rate?

 

[devmach-e]

you mean like the studies below all linked in the post above ....

NREL/CP-5400-63430. Posted with permission. Presented at the SAE 2015 World Congress & Exhibition, 21–23 April 2015, Detroit, Michigan.

https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle-Range-Testing-Report.pdf

https://asmedigitalcollection.asme....rimental-Investigation-on-Heating-Performance

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435123003513#bib1

1 of those studies are more than 9 years old, 1 of them is over 5 years old. Something a bit more recent would be nice. At least the last link is only a year old.

 

[Blue PonyE]

I bought out the lease on my '21 First Edition last February. Holding on to it until someone from Mecum knocks on my door asking if I want to sell a very collectible Mustang Mach E First Edition in Grabber Blue.

It is the season for hoping.

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