Motorweek's GTPE performance test results (caution: 1/4 trap speed talk within ?)

[cloud9]

Over the past number of years Ford has demonstrated a pattern of emphasizing, ie. hyping, Mustang track capabilities, only to have significant flaws emerge once in the hands of actual customers. One was in the first generation Coyote-powered cars which couldn't be shifted at redline because the transmission locked up. Then there was the track-bred GT350 which would overheat and go into limp mode half way through a 20 minute track session. Both of these led to lawsuits. Neither condition was acknowledged by Ford, nor was any remedy offered other than buying a newer model which had the problems rectified.

I spent time on the track with one of the engineers running B302 lap times below the track's benchmark time to carve your name in the table. I told him we were having issues keeping the cars cool, and he was surprised saying they were thoroughly tested preproduction, and didn't overheat. After testing larger radiators, grille replacements, Tiger ventilated hoods, brake cooling ducts/hoses and other cooling mods we collectively as a group finally fixed it. A bunch of us went to Chuckwalla and rented their school cars for a couple days and found they had installed Afco dual fan heat exchangers along with a grille swap and were able to keep them cool in the desert heat East of Indio, CA. I had the same issue running my S197 GT500 on track and ultimately in addition to running a larger radiator and heat exchanger, had to have a blower pulley setup that allowed me to run a larger pulley on the track to lower the boost. I spoke with one of the professional race drivers of the Ford GTs (2005-2006 era) who said they were constantly battling heat soak during their races and having to modify. Add in the MT82 transmission issues on the Coyote era cars and the grenading stock clutches and yes there's a history of needing significant upgrades if you're going to push them "as advertised".

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[Pushrods&Capacitors]

I spent time on the track with one of the engineers running B302 lap times below the track's benchmark time to carve your name in the table. I told him we were having issues keeping the cars cool, and he was surprised saying they were thoroughly tested preproduction, and didn't overheat. After testing larger radiators, grille replacements, Tiger ventilated hoods, brake cooling ducts/hoses and other cooling mods we collectively as a group finally fixed it. A bunch of us went to Chuckwalla and rented their school cars for a couple days and found they had installed Afco dual fan heat exchangers along with a grille swap and were able to keep them cool in the desert heat East of Indio, CA. I had the same issue running my S197 GT500 on track and ultimately in addition to running a larger radiator and heat exchanger, had to have a blower pulley setup that allowed me to run a larger pulley on the track to lower the boost. I spoke with one of the professional race drivers of the Ford GTs (2005-2006 era) who said they were constantly battling heat soak during their races and having to modify. Add in the MT82 transmission issues on the Coyote era cars and the grenading stock clutches and yes there's a history of needing significant upgrades if you're going to push them "as advertised".

This is where GM wins. They beat the living shit out of their 1LE and ZL-1 Camaros, all the Vettes and all of the Caddy V and now BlackWing series cars. 24 hour endurance type stuff where failures aren’t tolerated.
Not that Ford doesn’t, but it seems that they’re playing catch up on track day survivability.

 

[cloud9]

This is where GM wins. They beat the living shit out of their 1LE and ZL-1 Camaros, all the Vettes and all of the Caddy V and now BlackWing series cars. 24 hour endurance type stuff where failures aren’t tolerated.
Not that Ford doesn’t, but it seems that they’re playing catch up on track day survivability.

I'm not familiar with the Camaros on track because we frankly didn't see many of them. I would agree completely on the Vette. It also benefits from better aero, and a significantly better power to weight ratio. Big heavy muscle cars tax the entire system a lot more than Vettes or Porsches.

 

[Jimmy2]

My two cents: Ford can get us much better than 5 seconds on full blast, just like Tesla figured it out.
Will they do it on the 22 GTPE model? Probably not since it will piss of the faithful who already got their 21s. Enter Shelby / Ford Performance to save the day.

Interesting comments from the Ford SEMA guy recently at the Shelby Mach E display: Shelby is working on better performance, but he won't/can't say how, other than some weight reduction.

Dear Shelby: 10 seconds on full power; go for it boys.

 

[Jimmy2]

Question for the speed freaks: If the GTPE delivered full power to the motors for 10 seconds, how fast would that baby go? 1/4 mile time?
Assume no speed/motor limiter.

 

[Mach E JT]

Question for the speed freaks: If the GTPE delivered full power to the motors for 10 seconds, how fast would that baby go? 1/4 mile time?
Assume no speed/motor limiter.

If the GTPE had 10 seconds of full power it would run the 1/4 in mid, maybe low 11s.

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

Question for the speed freaks: If the GTPE delivered full power to the motors for 10 seconds, how fast would that baby go? 1/4 mile time?
Assume no speed/motor limiter.

The 480HP and 5000 lbs would then be the limiting factors. ET wouldn’t drop to any lower than say 11.6-11.8 but the trap speed would go to say 111-114ish. The 1.7x 60 ft time and 3.5 0-60 instruct us that anything lower than an 11.6 probably isn’t happening.

Example: Tesla YP @ 4400 lbs runs 11.8-12.0@112-114mph and the 3P @ 4000 lbs runs 11.6x@115-116.

GTPE isn’t out digging a 3P.

 

[Jimmy2]

The 480HP and 5000 lbs would then be the limiting factors. ET wouldn’t drop to any lower than say 11.6-11.8 but the trap speed would go to say 111-114ish. The 1.7x 60 ft time and 3.5 0-60 instruct us that anything lower than an 11.6 probably isn’t happening.

Example: Tesla YP @ 4400 lbs runs 11.8-12.0@112-114mph and the 3P @ 4000 lbs runs 11.6x@115-116.

GTPE isn’t out digging a 3P.

Your prediction sounds reasonable. I bet Ford knows for sure based on that computer simulator in Charlotte.

 

[MrClean]

The 480HP and 5000 lbs would then be the limiting factors. ET wouldn’t drop to any lower than say 11.6-11.8 but the trap speed would go to say 111-114ish. The 1.7x 60 ft time and 3.5 0-60 instruct us that anything lower than an 11.6 probably isn’t happening.

Example: Tesla YP @ 4400 lbs runs 11.8-12.0@112-114mph and the 3P @ 4000 lbs runs 11.6x@115-116.

GTPE isn’t out digging a 3P.

The Teslas are also using induction motors up front that perform better at high speed. Maybe part of the limiting factor is the permanent magnet motors front and back on the Ford, and that they are spinning pretty fast at highway speeds due to the gearing that favors explosive off-the-line acceleration. That produces a lot of back emf, right?

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

The Teslas are also using induction motors up front that perform better at high speed. Maybe part of the limiting factor is the permanent magnet motors front and back on the Ford, and that they are spinning pretty fast at highway speeds due to the gearing that favors explosive off-the-line acceleration. That produces a lot of back emf, right?

Yes. Which is why the Teslas can boast 150-155mph top speeds in the P variants. Even if their acceleration above 120ish mph is pretty sloth-like compared to an equivalent HP ICE car.

 

[buzznwood]

Yes. Which is why the Teslas can boast 150-155mph top speeds in the P variants. Even if their acceleration above 120ish mph is pretty sloth-like compared to an equivalent HP ICE car.

The taycan uses permanent magnet motors front and rear and has no problems running to higher speeds (yes two speed gearing on the rear axle but it shifts to second at around 43mph). The issue with the GTPE has and probably always will be that what marketing where selling and what engineering where creating has never been on the same page.

Will Shelby make some tweaks to make it magically better quite possible, however I would be very curious to see full list of parts that are changed as Ford does have a history of choices that look more like the design decisions of accountants rather than engineers with performance models Still it will probably give a clue towards answering if (A) The existing engineering is already up to the task and Ford is just being very cautious. (B) Significant changes where needed. (C) Shelby just turned it up to 11 and to hell with long term reliability.

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

The taycan uses permanent magnet motors front and rear and has no problems running to higher speeds (yes two speed gearing on the rear axle but it shifts to second at around 43mph). The issue with the GTPE has and probably always will be that what marketing where selling and what engineering where creating has never been on the same page.

Will Shelby make some tweaks to make it magically better quite possible, however I would be very curious to see full list of parts that are changed as Ford does have a history of choices that look more like the design decisions of accountants rather than engineers with performance models Still it will probably give a clue towards answering if (A) The existing engineering is already up to the task and Ford is just being very cautious. (B) Significant changes where needed. (C) Shelby just turned it up to 11 and to hell with long term reliability.

That 2-speed in the Taycan is worth more than most believe, I think. That’s why the Base Taycan with the hi po battery traps 115mph in the 1/4 mile at “only” 469 HP and a 5000lb curb weight. It also explains the Taycan’s extreme over performance in range testing vs. EPA estimates.
And count me as a Shelby American detractor. Anything they do power wise will be Ford engineer’s creation.

 

[Biggus Dickus]

While the technical aspects of getting a sub-12 1/4 in a GTPE are interesting, I remain confident that my wife will get back and forth to Costco quickly.

 

[MrClean]

The taycan uses permanent magnet motors front and rear and has no problems running to higher speeds (yes two speed gearing on the rear axle but it shifts to second at around 43mph). The issue with the GTPE has and probably always will be that what marketing where selling and what engineering where creating has never been on the same page.

It’s not just the two-speed transmission, which is significant. What about the gear ratios? How fast are the Taycan motors spinning at 60 or 70 mph compared to the GTPE? If you start pedaling a 21 speed bike in 1st gear, it will make for a very easy launch compared to a higher gear, but you’re going to run out of chooch more quickly as your RPMs build. it’s my understanding that the final gear ratio of the GT/GTPE is biased toward that quick launch, the downside being considerably faster RPMs at highway speeds. I don’t know if that is a fair analogy, but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

 

[Mach1E]

It’s not just the two-speed transmission, which is significant. What about the gear ratios? How fast are the Taycan motors spinning at 60 or 70 mph compared to the GTPE? If you start pedaling a 21 speed bike in 1st gear, it will make for a very easy launch compared to a higher gear, but you’re going to run out of chooch more quickly as your RPMs build. it’s my understanding that the final gear ratio of the GT/GTPE is biased toward that quick launch, the downside being considerably faster RPMs at highway speeds. I don’t know if that is a fair analogy, but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Yeah the gear ratio difference is huge. Quick google says 15.5:1 vs 8.05:1.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/amp28903274/porsche-taycan-transmission/

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