Range

[devmach-e]

What makes this even more of a pain is that with ICE cars they report both the city and highway range, but for EVs they are reporting one number. That means that they have still do that same testing with both conditions and maybe even throw in some different temperatures.

So, you don't even have those separated out, let alone the differences for driving aggressively opposed to "old man smooth".

In the city with RWD we get about 4.4 kWh per mile, on the highway doing a constant 70 mph it is about 3 kWh per mile.

It is easy to figure out what the EPA number really means. Just take the EPA number and divide it by the kWH of the battery. So, for the extended range AWD you have 300 / 88 = 3.409... kWh per mile. That is what you need to see to get the same range. You can use the trip app to look at this.

Note that people call the state of charge mileage number the GOM (guess o meter) for a reason.

So, a point of clarification: Gas cars don't get a separate range estimation for City and Highway. They get an efficiency rating known as MPG. EVs also get the same efficiency rating, called MPGe. Range is separately computed for both gas vehicles and EVs and is almost an afterthought, and just like for gas cars, EVB range is not seperated out by City or Highway.

Keep in mind that the EPA ratings are designed to allow someone to compare multiple comparable vehicles to see which vehicle is the more economical one to use. Obviously vehicles with higher overall MPG ratings will be cheaper to run, just as EVs with lower kWh per 100 miles will be cheaper to run.

According to the EPA, my 2022 Premium RWD ER can do 303 miles in a single charge. In reality it is about 270. About a 10% loss. My Highlander Hybrid is rated at 28 MPG overall, and supposedly a range of 482 miles (based on a 17.2 gallon tank). In reality, I see about 24 to 25 MPG and a theoretical max range of 433 miles. Also a 10% loss.

I've never expected to meet EPA estimates. And the EPA never expects you to do so, too. That's why there's a disclaimer on the Monroney sticker that says so.

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[Trielectric]

My 2025 Rally is EPA rated at 265 miles. Took a trip to Emerald Isle a few weeks ago and back 187 miles. Most of the drive was on 45 & 55mph highways. At the end, the cars range estimate left, would insinuate a total range of 275 miles. Hopefully that will improve when I change out the tires for summer Pirellis.

 

[Mach1E]

We have a 2023 GTPE and I have gone from Whisper drive to engage and back and never got a charge that exceeded 260 miles considering last charge guesstimate.
It was actually going down slightly with every charge it seemed.

Well, I have been driving in Unbridled mode only for 2 months and the charge mileage has come up to 286 after a month of Unbridled only.
I know that doesn't sound like a big diff but, 10%

is no joke.
Going to use Unbridled Extend Oct 1 st and see if it continues to increase.
I have 14,000 miles on car if that matters.
I drive the same road all the time so its not that.

View attachment 155757

It’s no coincidence that the last few months are warmer when you’re getting a higher stated range on the Guess o meter.

It’s been proven time and time again that this car does NOT have a “more efficient mode.” We use regenerative braking in all modes. Efficiency is determined by HOW you drive, not what mode you’re in.

The exception is unbridle extend. That mode would likely use less regeneration and more physical brakes which would be less efficient. It’s meant for off-road track use. It also limits your horsepower.

But for normal whisper, engage and unbridle (even low range mode) and no matter if one pedal or two pedal drive……..

Efficiency is identical. That’s the beauty of blended braking in our cars.

 

[Kawika]

Thanks adventure boy but here in Coastal California the temp only ranges 20 degrees all year round so, no not weather.
10 day forecast is 60 at night ad 72 during the day with very little fluctuation.
Been that way for 45 years I have lived here with occasional 80's and40's in winter but goes back to that 20 degree temp range..
I say efficiency IS different.
No AC no Heater just an open window driving to the beach with the dog.
I am a retired Energy Management and Automation Eng. so I am coming at this differently than
n anyone else here.
Self described experts here are not always right.
I will report back after driving in Unbridled Extend in October.

 

[ChrisO]

Thanks adventure boy but here in Coastal California the temp only ranges 20 degrees all year round so, no not weather.
10 day forecast is 60 at night ad 72 during the day with very little fluctuation.
Been that way for 45 years I have lived here with occasional 80's and40's in winter but goes back to that 20 degree temp range..
I say efficiency IS different.
No AC no Heater just an open window driving to the beach with the dog.
I am a retired Energy Management and Automation Eng. so I am coming at this differently than
n anyone else here.
Self described experts here are not always right.
I will report back after driving in Unbridled Extend in October.

one of the big problems with this is that we have to treat it as a black box. Without knowing the actual algorithm and parameters that go into we have to make guesses based on what we observe.

As a a programmer I wonder really what they actually take into account when there isn’t any route to consider.

It could be nothing more than a simple average, that would basically take temperature into account just because you are driving in it.

It occurs to me that if one could keep accurate records of kWh consumption over the same time they are trying see what the GOM is saying you might have a better idea if you are really getting better mileage or if you are looking at a fluke of the GOM.

 

[HuntingPudel]

We have a 2023 GTPE and I have gone from Whisper drive to engage and back and never got a charge that exceeded 260 miles considering last charge guesstimate.
It was actually going down slightly with every charge it seemed.

Well, I have been driving in Unbridled mode only for 2 months and the charge mileage has come up to 286 after a month of Unbridled only.
I know that doesn't sound like a big diff but, 10%

is no joke.
Going to use Unbridled Extend Oct 1 st and see if it continues to increase.
I have 14,000 miles on car if that matters.
I drive the same road all the time so its not that.

View attachment 155757

While Unbridled Extend limits full throttle output, it does not activate any regenerative braking, so you will likely see worse economy in town and if you're driving at a steady state on the highway you should see no difference.

 

[Mach1E]

Thanks adventure boy but here in Coastal California the temp only ranges 20 degrees all year round so, no not weather.
10 day forecast is 60 at night ad 72 during the day with very little fluctuation.
Been that way for 45 years I have lived here with occasional 80's and40's in winter but goes back to that 20 degree temp range..
I say efficiency IS different.
No AC no Heater just an open window driving to the beach with the dog.
I am a retired Energy Management and Automation Eng. so I am coming at this differently than
n anyone else here.
Self described experts here are not always right.
I will report back after driving in Unbridled Extend in October.

Unfortunately your engineering degree is useless if you’re using a bad measuring stick.

The guess-o-meter is called that for good reason, it’s not an accurate measurement.

Unless you want to compare drive modes in IDENTICAL driving situations (and that means charging to 100%, driving until the car stops and doing it repeatedly with identical speeds, roads, weather and wind) you will not be able to draw any real conclusions.

But even if you did the above, you would find out what we already know based on how the car is programmed- drive modes do not impact efficiency.

The only thing they do is impact how the car reacts when you hit the accelerator and brake pedal.

Think of it this way, the car will use regenerative braking the SAME exact way no matter which “button or lever” you push.

If you accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 1000 feet, then tell the car to slow to a stop in 1000 feet, it doesn’t matter if you do that in 1PD, 2PD, whisper, unbridle etc, it will use the identical amount of energy.**

**except in unbridle extend where it uses more physical brakes.

And again, don’t use the guess o meter to measure results. It isn’t precise.

 

[Flint302]

Just wait till it gets cold. We are just about to enter the "I think I got the wrong battery" season.

 

[Mach1E]

one of the big problems with this is that we have to treat it as a black box. Without knowing the actual algorithm and parameters that go into we have to make guesses based on what we observe.

As a a programmer I wonder really what they actually take into account when there isn’t any route to consider.

It could be nothing more than a simple average, that would basically take temperature into account just because you are driving in it.

It occurs to me that if one could keep accurate records of kWh consumption over the same time they are trying see what the GOM is saying you might have a better idea if you are really getting better mileage or if you are looking at a fluke of the GOM.

People have done that here before (lots of logs of kWh consumption over years of data) and the results are the same- driving habits and external factors determine efficiency, not drive mode.

The OP isn’t the first engineer on the forums nor will he be the last. By now we know that it doesn’t matter how much we explain it, they still have to test it out for themselves.

I remember a thread that went 8 pages before we realized the OP was dividing the miles driven by % drop in battery percentage to try to calculate miles per kWh. No one could figure out where the unbelievable numbers were coming from…..

But if you do end up measuring efficiency, you have to use the right measuring stick and remove variables. People don’t realize at first how much of a difference 10 degrees of temp, 10 mph of speed or 10 mph of wind can make for our cars.

 

[Kawika]

None of what you say is real experience and had you read my post you would have seen I live somewhere with no weather change.
Pretty much Benchmark temp, pressure and humidity all year around and perfect for comparison testing.
Ok smart guys tell me why I am getting 10+% increase as battery ages with 13,000 miles?
I guess the Guess O Meter has a +/-10 % Fudge A Range software installed.

 

[ChrisO]

None of what you say is real experience and had you read my post you would have seen I live somewhere with no weather change.
Pretty much Benchmark temp, pressure and humidity all year around and perfect for comparison testing.
Ok smart guys tell me why I am getting 10+% increase as battery ages with 13,000 miles?
I guess the Guess O Meter has a +/-10 % Fudge A Range software installed.

Please note that at no time am I going to suggest that a anyone’s observations are invalid, so please don’t take it that way.

But as I said without being able to see what the GOM takes into account we are guessing how the guess is being made.

What is truly important is determining if you have actually got better mileage or not. If it hasn’t changed then there is just something about how the GOM is making that guess that it is taking into account that isn’t understood. Which on pre-2025 models can be determined using a OBD scanner.

If you are actually getting better mileage then that indicates that it might be something in that part the system that isn’t understood. This would be determined by the actual kWh consumed.

The main point is to isolate to the right part of the system and not use a guess as proof of something that can be measured accurately in a different way.

 

[Mach1E]

None of what you say is real experience and had you read my post you would have seen I live somewhere with no weather change.
Pretty much Benchmark temp, pressure and humidity all year around and perfect for comparison testing.
Ok smart guys tell me why I am getting 10+% increase as battery ages with 13,000 miles?
I guess the Guess O Meter has a +/-10 % Fudge A Range software installed.

Yes.

The guess-o-meter has a large fudge factor. That’s why I’ve been saying it’s a bad measuring stick.

They also have changed how it calculates multiple times since I’ve owned the car. I was even part of a pilot program where they updated the software to change how it calculates and asked for our feedback then changed it again and released an OTA update for everyone.

But what we know for certain is this-

1. the guess o meter has that nickname for good reason.

2. how the regenerative braking system in this car works.

And #2 is the only thing that could change efficiency. But our system (unlike some competitors) doesn’t change the amount of physical brakes being used based on drive modes (**except unbridle extend).

The only things that could change efficiency for the Mach E are-
1. How you drive (speed and acceleration/braking)
2. External factors (wind, temperature etc)

Drive mode isn’t a factor except unbridle extend which limits power and regenerative braking and is meant for race track use.

 

[Kawika]

"If you are actually getting better mileage then that indicates that it might be something in that part the system that isn’t understood. "

That is my point.

I don't really find any joy and am not going to post anymore here.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

We are just about to enter the "I think I got the wrong battery" season

Nah. This year is going to be different!

 

[Space_Pony]

Nah. This year is going to be different!

I wouldn't think it would be too much different in your locale.

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