Rivian Adventure Network: Is it good for Ford?

[dbsb3233]

Another example is cell phones. A decade ago, the purchase of the cell phone itself was usually part of the cell carrier contract. They heavily subsidized the phone purchase but charged way more for monthly cell service.

Over the last 5-6 years they finally unbundled those. Now it's easy to buy a new phone wherever you want (like Amazon) and independently purchase cell service at far better rates. Gives us far more flexibility, and there's far more competition with better pricing.

Similarly, having BEV manufacturers and charging stations "unbundled" would be much better than marrying the two, which often leads to favoritism, subsidization, and sometimes even exclusivity. Which means less competition and the goodness it creates.

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[dbsb3233]

@timbop, is there something in the article that makes you think the Rivian chargers would be exclusive to Rivian owners?

Doesn't have to be fully exclusive to still be a detriment. Could be higher pricing for non-Rivian vehicles. Or some sort of priority usage for Rivians that disadvantages others.

More chargers is an improvement in general, of course. But much better would be independent ones that service all BEVs equally and promote maximum competition at true pricing (i.e. not vehicle manufacturer subsidized).

 

[silverelan]

Doesn't have to be fully exclusive to still be a detriment. Could be higher pricing for non-Rivian vehicles. Or some sort of priority usage for Rivians that disadvantages others.

More chargers is an improvement in general, of course. But much better would be independent ones that service all BEVs equally and promote maximum competition at true pricing (i.e. not vehicle manufacturer subsidized).

To be clear, we don't know what Rivian is going to do with availability and pricing.

But using your cell phone analogy, we have roaming agreements between carriers and if you drift outside of your normal service area, you'll see roaming charges.

I don't see a pricey Rivian high-powered charger available to the public as much different than say a roaming cell phone charge or a premium-priced gas station in a remote location like Telluride, CO.

 

[timbop]

To be clear, we don't know what Rivian is going to do with availability and pricing.

But using your cell phone analogy, we have roaming agreements between carriers and if you drift outside of your normal service area, you'll see roaming charges.

I don't see a pricey Rivian high-powered charger available to the public as much different than say a roaming cell phone charge or a premium-priced gas station in a remote location like Telluride, CO.

Hmm, interesting take. Maybe it won't be as bad as I worry it could be. If you recall roaming was ridiculously inflated in the early days, which is a bad thing. But right now EA has a virtual monopoly on truly fast charging, which is also not a good thing. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out, and hopefully the market dynamics works in our favor after a decade or so. The most important thing is interoperability - collecting all the various providers under one account like Ford has said they are doing will help to limit confusion by consumers.

 

[dbsb3233]

To be clear, we don't know what Rivian is going to do with availability and pricing.

But using your cell phone analogy, we have roaming agreements between carriers and if you drift outside of your normal service area, you'll see roaming charges.

I don't see a pricey Rivian high-powered charger available to the public as much different than say a roaming cell phone charge or a premium-priced gas station in a remote location like Telluride, CO.

International roaming upcharges are an interesting addition to the analogy. I guess that's another good way to look at it, although it loses the "subsidized in the purchase of the device" aspect I was going for when the base product (car/phone) is in bed with the necessary services (fuel/cell service).

But the roaming charge analogy does applies more to partner subscription plans. Like for instance, if Ford is subsidizing a subscription for a cheaper rate with EA than with EA competitors. I look at that as a negative too relative to totally independent retail charger outlets competing with each other.

A remote location is a totally different deal, since the issue is the same for all outlets there -- high cost due to remoteness. All the gas stations in Teluride, or Hawaii, are expensive. Having nothing to do with any connection to auto manufacturers.

 

[dbsb3233]

The most important thing is interoperability - collecting all the various providers under one account like Ford has said they are doing will help to limit confusion by consumers.

I mostly agree with that, although I still have some concern that when the auto manufacturer creates it rather than some independent company/service, they'll be more likely to skew it toward whoever they may have partnered with.

The more independent that charging stations (and search/mapping engines steering people to them) can be from auto manufacturers, the better. (As long as the app runs cleanly on the vehicle interface, of course.) The goal should really be the ICE vehicle + gas station model, where they're totally independent of each other.

 

[silverelan]

International roaming upcharges are an interesting addition to the analogy. I guess that's another good way to look at it, although it loses the "subsidized in the purchase of the device" aspect I was going for when the base product (car/phone) is in bed with the necessary services (fuel/cell service).

But the roaming charge analogy does applies more to partner subscription plans. Like for instance, if Ford is subsidizing a subscription for a cheaper rate with EA than with EA competitors. I look at that as a negative too relative to totally independent retail charger outlets competing with each other.

A remote location is a totally different deal, since the issue is the same for all outlets there -- high cost due to remoteness. All the gas stations in Teluride, or Hawaii, are expensive. Having nothing to do with any connection to auto manufacturers.

Let's bring it back home here. So Rivian is going to put HPC (high-powered chargers) in remote destination locations to promote the sales of their vehicles. What we don't know is if they're going to be publicly available, exclusive to Rivian or some other scheme and we're speculating on their approach.

Sounds like a lot of game theory stuff you can play out but I'd have to imagine the most likely scenario is the one that has everyone winning. CCS EV drivers get a new place to charge, Rivian owners can be assured of their adventures, and everyone is happy.

 

[dbsb3233]

Let's bring it back home here. So Rivian is going to put HPC (high-powered chargers) in remote destination locations to promote the sales of their vehicles. What we don't know is if they're going to be publicly available, exclusive to Rivian or some other scheme and we're speculating on their approach.

Sounds like a lot of game theory stuff you can play out but I'd have to imagine the most likely scenario is the one that has everyone winning. CCS EV drivers get a new place to charge, Rivian owners can be assured of their adventures, and everyone is happy.

That's what I had said above at one point - that more charging stations is still a net plus. My point was that it would be even better if they were independent ones, since being tied to a specific auto manufacturer tends to create favoritism/exclusivity (see: Tesla).

But I also get that we're still in the infancy period now for BEVs and retail charging stations, and beggars can't be choosers. Anything is better than nothing. But I do hope that as we advance out of the infancy stage, we steer away from the manufacturer-run model and toward full independency for charging stations.

 

[timbop]

But I do hope that as we advance out of the infancy stage, we steer away from the manufacturer-run model and toward full independency for charging stations.

amen

 

[ChasingCoral]

But I do hope that as we advance out of the infancy stage, we steer away from the manufacturer-run model and toward full independency for charging stations.

I don't have the numbers but I'll bet there are just about as many independent charging stations as those that are manufacturer run (EVgo, ChargePoint, Semma, etc.). Even EA isn't manufacturer-run, so its a bit of a hybrid.

 

[dbsb3233]

I don't have the numbers but I'll bet there are just about as many independent charging stations as those that are manufacturer run (EVgo, ChargePoint, Semma, etc.). Even EA isn't manufacturer-run, so its a bit of a hybrid.

Probably so, although I think most of those others are usually L2 stations rather than L3. Not that those don't count, but it's a whole different category of service. L2 does have more independency and competition. It's L3 that really needs more independent operators and competition.

 

[hybrid2bev]

Pretty cool video!

We get to meet the Michigan-based electric automaker's battery team and go behind the scenes in a Rivian lab to learn all about Rivian's electric adventure vehicles, and, more specifically, their batteries and battery packs.

The team talks about how its system is unique and designed in-house. These vehicles need plenty of battery cells, but the packaging must be such that the pack doesn't take space away from the electric trucks. In addition, due to the purpose of these adventure vehicles, the batteries have to be especially good at warding off excessive heat, and must last for years and years.



https://insideevs.com/news/428452/video-rivian-electric-pickup-truck-battery/

 

[dbsb3233]

I love what Rivian is doing and how they're doing it. Particularly in creating a BEV pickup that actually looks like a pickup.

I hope they're a success. That's an awfully high price point though. Definitely going to be a challenge generating enough sales for a relatively small pickup at that high price point. It's easy to get the niche enthusiasts, but they'll need to reach deeper into the mainstream to make it a financial success.

 

[Billyk24]

I love what Rivian is doing and how they're doing it. Particularly in creating a BEV pickup that actually looks like a pickup.

I hope they're a success. That's an awfully high price point though. Definitely going to be a challenge generating enough sales for a relatively small pickup at that high price point. It's easy to get the niche enthusiasts, but they'll need to reach deeper into the mainstream to make it a financial success.

They have shown a cross over compact vehicle that is suppose to hit the retail market 2023. Tesla has shown what can happen to those proposed dates.

 

[dbsb3233]

They have shown a cross over compact vehicle that is suppose to hit the retail market 2023. Tesla has shown what can happen to those proposed dates.

Oh cool! That sent be searching, and I found some possible renderings. They look pretty neat...