Tesla Slashes Prices

[EVandSolar]

Sure they are a software company first, so they excel here. But my 21 has taken over 20 updates in it's first year, all without issue, so I still consider Ford doing pretty well here.

No hidden agenda here, truly curious. Are the updates able to be done without inconvenience i.e. from home, or do you have to take the car in to the dealer and pay for each update? Just curious because it seems like I remember seeing some complaints about that, maybe here on the forums? Or is it that some updates can be done from home but certain ones require a dealer visit? Thanks.

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[MacherAWD]

No hidden agenda here, truly curious. Are the updates able to be done without inconvenience i.e. from home, or do you have to take the car in to the dealer and pay for each update? Just curious because it seems like I remember seeing some complaints about that, maybe here on the forums? Or is it that some updates can be done from home but certain ones require a dealer visit? Thanks.

All of them have been over air at home, no dealer intervention. That said I have seen cars on the forum that get stuck and requires dealer intervention. So it's similar to a Tesla experience, and I would assume it would only improve from here.

 

[Mach1E]

I have found that this is not actually true.

Tesla achieves EPA rated range when driving the EPA range test cycles. This is not overestimating, nor is it underestimating. This is accurate. The reason people get confused is because Ford intentionally *underestimates* their rated range. Whatever range they achieve in the EPA test cycle they use, they choose to reduce the range that they advertise, as is their right.

If you want to be accurate, you can claim that Tesla chooses not to report EPA range lower than actual test results. This would be true.

Regardless of this, Bjorn used actual real world driving efficiency to compare the rate at which range is replenished while charging, using the same driving speed between various models.

Here is a factual example of Tesla not only matching, but exceeding the EPA rated range they advertise. My car is rated at 334 miles of range by Tesla.

Here is my actual efficiency so far this month, mostly for my daily commute which consists of half highway miles, where I drive fast enough to get a speeding ticket @8 mph over the speed limit, 10-11 over when passing.:

222 Wh/mi = 4.5 mi/kWh.
82 kW pack, 77 usable.
77x4.5=347 miles.
EPA range 334 miles, or 13 less than what I am averaging even with cool 50ish degree morning weather i.e. my efficiency is likely to go up a bit as we move further into summer.

I am exceeding Tesla advertised range for my car even with speeding on the highway for half my commute in cool weather.

So again, to be accurate, you can claim that Tesla does not underestimate their EPA range results. But saying they overestimate their range is false.

We say “Tesla overestimates their EPA range.”

You say “everyone else underestimates their EPA range.”

It’s the SAME THING!

Doesn’t matter which way you look at it, Tesla is the odd man out and their numbers look higher because of it.

And by choosing their EPA testing method, it makes them look better compared to the competition. And the average consumer has no clue that it’s not a fair comparison when looking at EPA range.

 

[MacherAWD]

We say “Tesla overestimates their EPA range.”

You say “everyone else underestimates their EPA range.”

It’s the SAME THING!

Doesn’t matter which way you look at it, Tesla is the odd man out and their numbers look higher because of it.

And by choosing their EPA testing method, it makes them look better compared to the competition. And the average consumer has no clue that it’s not a fair comparison when looking at EPA range.

I seriously think we may just be debating an AI chat bot. This argument keeps replying in a loop, they will never concede.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Here's the thing. There isn't a standard definition of "real world range." The closest we have is the EPA's 5 cycle test which claims to "reflect real world driving." Every other test out there is just measuring their own test cycle.

So it's not accurate to claim that Tesla overestimate "real world range" when "real world range" is not clearly defined.

 

[EVandSolar]

You guys talk about "not conceding the argument"....I literally provided facts that clearly dispute your argument that Tesla overestimates the EPA range. It is absolutely 100% false.

I also provided a real world example of a Tesla not just meeting, but exceeding the EPA rated range in real life driving conditions.

Ford scales back their EPA test results to lower the range they advertise. Why should Tesla lie about their EPA range results just because Ford chooses to change their results? Your arguments are ridiculous.

If the facts did not support my statements, I would concede. Your opinions don't change the facts.

What I do agree upon is that there should be an enforced standard by a government agency that normalizes range that is reported. Tesla reports accurate information, Ford reports inaccurate information. Claiming repeatedly that Tesla lies and should try to guess how much another manufacturer(Ford) changes their results and then change theirs to match is absurd logic. If you want to be angry, be angry at Ford for not reporting actual results which is what is causing the disparity.

Or be angry at the US government or EPA.

 

[Mach1E]

You guys talk about "not conceding the argument"....I literally provided facts that clearly dispute your argument that Tesla overestimates the EPA range. It is absolutely 100% false.

I also provided a real world example of a Tesla not just meeting, but exceeding the EPA rated range in real life driving conditions.

Ford scales back their EPA test results to lower the range they advertise. Why should Tesla lie about their EPA range results just because Ford chooses to change their results? Your arguments are ridiculous.

If the facts did not support my statements, I would concede. Your opinions don't change the facts.

What I do agree upon is that there should be an enforced standard by a government agency that normalizes range that is reported. Tesla reports accurate information, Ford reports inaccurate information. Claiming repeatedly that Tesla lies and should try to guess how much another manufacturer(Ford) changes their results and then change theirs to match is absurd logic. If you want to be angry, be angry at Ford for not reporting actual results which is what is causing the disparity.

Or be angry at the US government or EPA.

You’re arguing about the point that doesn’t matter.

All that matters is the end result-

Tesla’s EPA numbers are inflated compared to the competition and that IS NOT FAIR TO THE CONSUMER.

Arguing “who is the most accurate” is silly and an impossible argument.

Each test is accurate if the driver drives the same way as the test.

There is no such thing as a “more accurate test,” so there is no need to keep bringing it up.

 

[MacherAWD]

You’re arguing about the point that doesn’t matter.

All that matters is the end result-

Tesla’s EPA numbers are inflated compared to the competition and that IS NOT FAIR TO THE CONSUMER.

Arguing “who is the most accurate” is silly and an impossible argument.

Each test is accurate if the driver drives the same way as the test.

There is no such thing as a “more accurate test,” so there is no need to keep bringing it up.

It's the same if he tried to argue that Tesla uses a standard charger that everyone else should use. Tesla has 1 standard, the rest of the industry another standard, I am sure he thinks everyone should change to match Tesla.

 

[EVandSolar]

Let's evaluate the facts on wether Tesla is the outlier i.e. "inflated compared to the competition"

Again, let's present facts, instead of heavily biased feelings. This will only matter if facts matter to you.

Here is a list of EV's that InsideEV's has done 70 mph range tests along with how close they are to manufacturers EPA range estimate:
2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 -11.3%
Lucid Air -4%
2021 Tesla M3 -12.2%
2021 MS Plaid -12%
2020 MY -12.7%
2019 M3 -10%. At least we have some consistency here...all 10-12% below EPA range when driven MUCH faster i.e. 70 mph nonstop. Testing is therefore accurate and consistent.
2021 Mach-E Cal Rt1. -6%. A good result, since Ford reduces the results some random, unknown amount i.e. how is a competitor supposed to know how much Ford *alters* the results???
2023 Mach E Prem AWD Extended Range -1.7%. Another good result, but a lot of variation. Others should magically guess Fords random amount they change results in order to "match"????
2022 Ford F150 Ext Range -15.6%. Less than Tesla. OMG Ford overestimate their range more than Tesla!!!! See how ridiculous this argument is?
2022 Rivian -19.1% OMG Rivian overestimates EPA range more than Tesla!! Wait, does this mean Tesla does NOT overestimate range when compared to lots of competitors? Hmm, facts sure change the false narrative being presented!
2022 Kia EV6 -10.6%. About the same as Tesla. Another data point proving your narrative is false.
2020 Hyundai Kona -7.8%
2021 VW ID4 -6.4%
2020 Chevy Bolt -12.7%
2022 Jaguar Space -16.7%
2020 Nissan Leaf -11.6%
2019 Audi e-tron -7.9%

When looking at the facts of A LOT of various EV models, Tesla seems pretty middle of the pack when it comes to range at 70 mph vs EPA range. They show *consistency* which I feel is important.

Based on the facts, I don't see that Tesla's rated range varies egregiously vs lots of other EV's

Given the FACT that Tesla factually achieves its EPA rated range in real world conditions, (I actually have first hand experience in the matter), I'm just not seeing that Tesla overestimates EPA range compared to the competition, any kind of general trend.

Stop making false statements, I'll stop refuting them with facts.

 

[Mach1E]

Let's evaluate the facts on wether Tesla is the outlier i.e. "inflated compared to the competition"

Again, let's present facts, instead of heavily biased feelings. This will only matter if facts matter to you.

Here is a list of EV's that InsideEV's has done 70 mph range tests along with how close they are to manufacturers EPA range estimate:
2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 -11.3%
Lucid Air -4%
2021 Tesla M3 -12.2%
2021 MS Plaid -12%
2020 MY -12.7%
2019 M3 -10%. At least we have some consistency here...all 10-12% below EPA range when driven MUCH faster i.e. 70 mph nonstop. Testing is therefore accurate and consistent.
2021 Mach-E Cal Rt1. -6%. A good result, since Ford reduces the results some random, unknown amount i.e. how is a competitor supposed to know how much Ford *alters* the results???
2023 Mach E Prem AWD Extended Range -1.7%. Another good result, but a lot of variation. Others should magically guess Fords random amount they change results in order to "match"????
2022 Ford F150 Ext Range -15.6%. Less than Tesla. OMG Ford overestimate their range more than Tesla!!!! See how ridiculous this argument is?
2022 Rivian -19.1% OMG Rivian overestimates EPA range more than Tesla!! Wait, does this mean Tesla does NOT overestimate range when compared to lots of competitors? Hmm, facts sure change the false narrative being presented!
2022 Kia EV6 -10.6%. About the same as Tesla. Another data point proving your narrative is false.
2020 Hyundai Kona -7.8%
2021 VW ID4 -6.4%
2020 Chevy Bolt -12.7%
2022 Jaguar Space -16.7%
2020 Nissan Leaf -11.6%
2019 Audi e-tron -7.9%

When looking at the facts of A LOT of various EV models, Tesla seems pretty middle of the pack when it comes to range at 70 mph vs EPA range. They show *consistency* which I feel is important.

Based on the facts, I don't see that Tesla's rated range varies egregiously vs lots of other EV's

Given the FACT that Tesla factually achieves its EPA rated range in real world conditions, (I actually have first hand experience in the matter), I'm just not seeing that Tesla overestimates EPA range compared to the competition, any kind of general trend.

Stop making false statements, I'll stop refuting them with facts.

Cool, keep beating your head against this wall.

The point you’re making above has NOTHING to do with the point we are making:

Tesla chooses to use a different EPA test than everyone else and it makes them look like they have higher range than everyone else the consumer.

What does the 70 mph range test have to do with this? Absolutely nothing.

How does this get fixed?

Either Tesla changes the test they use, the percent they reduce, or EVERYONE ELSE changes.

Which solution seems more reasonable?

 

[tmrqs]

Realistically, the only way it will change is if the EPA makes everyone use the same standard, and not give car makers the option to choose how to go about it.

I don't think anyone can fault Tesla, Ford or X to pick one or the other.

 

[Mach1E]

Realistically, the only way it will change is if the EPA makes everyone use the same standard, and not give car makers the option to choose how to go about it.

I don't think anyone can fault Tesla, Ford or X to pick one or the other.

I agree with the first part, but not the 2nd.

If one manufacturer chooses to use the test that makes them look misleadingly better…… sure it’s legal, but you are purposefully misleading the consumers.

And yeah, I’ll fault you for that.

 

[EVandSolar]

Cool, keep beating your head against this wall.

The point you’re making above has NOTHING to do with the point we are making:

Tesla chooses to use a different EPA test than everyone else and it makes them look like they have higher range than everyone else the consumer.

This is false. The 5 cycle test that Tesla uses is a more difficult test that includes heavier acceleration and deceleration, faster highway speeds, hot weather use with A/C, and cold weather use with heat. The test Tesla uses is *harder* than the 2 cycle test. Once again(and again, and again, and again)...the ONLY reason Tesla has higher EPA rated range than SOME(not all, not most), is that SOME manufacturers choose to reduce the results they get in the EPA range test. You criticize Tesla for not changing their results to match Ford's adjustment. Tell me, do YOU know exactly what formula Ford uses to reduce the range results they get? InsideEV's tested 3 Ford EV that varied from -1.6% to -15% of EPA rated range in the 70 mph speed test. Do you really think it makes sense for Tesla to check with Ford and ask them how much they should reduce their results in order to try and match up with Fords *UNPUBLISHED* and highly variably discrepancy they used in reporting?

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

From the government agency that designed the test:

"Beginning with 2008 models, three additional tests are used to adjust the city and highway estimates to account for higher speeds, air conditioning use, and colder temperatures."

You keep stating your opinion...and it is just FACTUALLY WRONG. I am providing links and proof that what you are stating is wrong. You can continue to make false statements. I will continue to refute with facts.

The ONLY reason a few EV's have more conservative EPA rated range advertised is because they are changing the EPA test results. We don't know how much they are changing them. I also showed 7 major brands that all have similar range reduction during 70 mph tests compare to Tesla. The brands are:
FORD
Hyundai
Jaguar
Rivian
Kia
Chevrolet
Nissan

All 7 of these companies had range that was more than 10% below the EPA rated range estimate for the car.

The Mustang Mach E does post very high range compared to other vehicles, for the most part, compared to their EPA rated range. Mustang Mach E is not the only EV made. Most of the other brands/models, including those made by Ford, have similar 70 mph range variation vs EPA results.

The Mach-E is the anomaly. Porsche is an even bigger outlier. They tend to exceed EPA rated range while driving 70 mph by 30%+. Does this mean Ford is lying and inflating their range estimates since Porsche reduces their reported EPA range even more? NO. Does it mean Ford should ask Porsche how much they reduce their range and then do the same for all their vehicles? NO, this would be just as stupid as insisting that Tesla matches the range reduction that Ford chooses to publish..

You have blinders on when it comes to the Mach-E....it is not the center of the universe with which all other cars must comply.

Do we need a universal metric that gives a level playing field for advertised range? Yes. But your statements about Tesla using an EPA test cycle that inflates their range compared to others is false. Stating that Tesla inflates their EPA range is false. Stating that Tesla's range is inflated compared to other manufacturers(in a broad, general sense) is false.

 

[Mach1E]

This is false. The 5 cycle test that Tesla uses is a more difficult test that includes heavier acceleration and deceleration, faster highway speeds, hot weather use with A/C, and cold weather use with heat. The test Tesla uses is *harder* than the 2 cycle test. Once again(and again, and again, and again)...the ONLY reason Tesla has higher EPA rated range than SOME(not all, not most), is that SOME manufacturers choose to reduce the results they get in the EPA range test. You criticize Tesla for not changing their results to match Ford's adjustment. Tell me, do YOU know exactly what formula Ford uses to reduce the range results they get? InsideEV's tested 3 Ford EV that varied from -1.6% to -15% of EPA rated range in the 70 mph speed test. Do you really think it makes sense for Tesla to check with Ford and ask them how much they should reduce their results in order to try and match up with Fords *UNPUBLISHED* and highly variably discrepancy they used in reporting?

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

From the government agency that designed the test:

"Beginning with 2008 models, three additional tests are used to adjust the city and highway estimates to account for higher speeds, air conditioning use, and colder temperatures."

You keep stating your opinion...and it is just FACTUALLY WRONG. I am providing links and proof that what you are stating is wrong. You can continue to make false statements. I will continue to refute with facts.

The ONLY reason a few EV's have more conservative EPA rated range advertised is because they are changing the EPA test results. We don't know how much they are changing them. I also showed 7 major brands that all have similar range reduction during 70 mph tests compare to Tesla. The brands are:
FORD
Hyundai
Jaguar
Rivian
Kia
Chevrolet
Nissan

All 7 of these companies had range that was more than 10% below the EPA rated range estimate for the car.

The Mustang Mach E does post very high range compared to other vehicles, for the most part, compared to their EPA rated range. Mustang Mach E is not the only EV made. Most of the other brands/models, including those made by Ford, have similar 70 mph range variation vs EPA results.

The Mach-E is the anomaly. Porsche is an even bigger outlier. They tend to exceed EPA rated range while driving 70 mph by 30%+. Does this mean Ford is lying and inflating their range estimates since Porsche reduces their reported EPA range even more? NO. Does it mean Ford should ask Porsche how much they reduce their range and then do the same for all their vehicles? NO, this would be just as stupid as insisting that Tesla matches the range reduction that Ford chooses to publish..

You have blinders on when it comes to the Mach-E....it is not the center of the universe with which all other cars must comply.

Do we need a universal metric that gives a level playing field for advertised range? Yes. But your statements about Tesla using an EPA test cycle that inflates their range compared to others is false. Stating that Tesla inflates their EPA range is false. Stating that Tesla's range is inflated compared to other manufacturers(in a broad, general sense) is false.

Tesla model Y, per Tesla shows a higher EPA range than the Mach E.

Tesla model Y has a lower real world range than the Mach E.

Doesn’t get much simpler than that.

And yeah, the Mach E is the center of this universe. Do you not know which forum you are on?

As far as blinders go…… that’s hilarious! I’m quite critical of Ford and the Mach E, even on this thread. It’s the blind faith that the Tesla supporters here have that’s a bit silly. Tesla can do no wrong in their eyes.

 

[EVandSolar]

Tesla model Y, per Tesla shows a higher EPA range than the Mach E.

Tesla model Y has a lower real world range than the Mach E.

Doesn’t get much simpler than that.

Well, I thought it was simple, but you may not be comprehending the conversation well enough to follow. Let me try once more, keeping things really simple for you:
1) You have accused Tesla of using an easier EPA test cycle to inflate their range compared to others. This is false, and I've clearly explained why. Go back and read the conversation. I've posted facts from the EPA website regarding the EPA test cycles.

2) You have claimed Tesla inflates their EPA range rating. This is false. They post accurate data from the EPA tests.

3) Ford Mach E and Tesla MY are closer in range than the EPA range estimates would seem to indicate. This, is TRUE. Your comprehension failure seems to be in understanding or admitting why. What you want to believe is that Tesla/Musk is bad and lying/inflating/cheating/using an easier test cycle etc etc etc. In this, you are completely wrong. I've countered your false opinions with facts. The TRUTH is that Ford simply changed their EPA test results significantly to advertise a lower rating than what they actually achieved in the EPA test results. So Tesla did not inflate. Ford deflated. But not on the Lightning, which had a bigger range variation than all the Teslas tested.

You can argue that Tesla should change their EPA test results to match Fords adjustment if you'd like since you claim they are the only one that doesn't deflate their range results some random amount. But, I also showed that 7 other manufacturers, INCLUDING FORD, have similar or worse actual tested range compared to the EPA range estimates. So in this, you are again wrong.

What you don't seem to understand, is that I agree the Mach E and Tesla MY are closer in actual range than the advertised EPA range would seem to indicate. Re-stating this over and over does not somehow make you right about your false claims in regards to why the range is close.

It’s the blind faith that the Tesla supporters here have that’s a bit silly. Tesla can do no wrong in their eyes.

Why go off topic with a vague, stereotyping generalization that has nothing to do with the discussion? Stick to the facts and topic at hand, unless of course you can't back up what you are saying with facts(which so far, you haven't been able to).

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