Texas Tesla Tragedy

[Zathras]

As far as operating the doors, Teslas have some...interesting design choices. This crash was reported to be a Tesla Model S, and based on what I've found online, the front inside door handle, while normally working electrically, has a cable backup that should open the door if power is cut.

Edit: I found one post on a Tesla forum that states that, with a power loss, the window remains up after the door handle is pulled, so more force is required to get the window (and hence the door) dislodged from the seal. I can see this being an issue with just about any car that has "drop down" power windows.

To open the back doors of the Model S without power, the occupant is supposed to "fold back the edge of the carpet below the rear seats to expose the mechanical release cable. " Which may not be a simple task if you are injured, disoriented, or on fire.

The Model 3 has no way for a rear seat passenger to open the rear doors if power is cut. (However, the Model 3 rear doors can be opened from a panel on the front door.)

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[All Hat No Cattle]

I sorta wish the focus wasn't on AutoPilot by the media, because there are so many other questions.

If it wasn't AutoPilot, why did it crash? Shouldn't the pre-collision assist slowed the car down significantly before impact? If it wasn't high speed, why was it so bad? Why was the battery compromised? If the driver was in the driver's seat and then crawled in the back, why? Why wouldn't he just open door? Is there a problem with the doors if both the driver and passenger couldn't get out?

Agreed, great questions.

If it seems that I am beating up on Tesla, it is because Tesla makes it so easy.

Go to Post #1, and look at the pictures. Then try to reconcile that with what Tesla actually says. I highlighted the parts that apply to this accident.

Tesla Vehicle Safety Report


At Tesla, we believe that technology can help improve safety. That’s why Tesla vehicles are engineered to be the safest cars in the world. We believe the unique combination of passive safety, active safety, and automated driver assistance is crucial for keeping not just Tesla drivers and passengers safe, but all drivers on the road. It’s this notion that grounds every decision we make – from the design of our cars, to the software we introduce, to the features we offer every Tesla owner.
Model S, Model X and Model 3 have achieved the lowest overall probability of injury of any vehicle ever tested by the U.S. government’s New Car Assessment Program. Much of this has to do with the rigid, fortified structure of the battery pack that is mounted to a car’s floor, which provides a vehicle with exceptional strength, large crumple zones, and a uniquely low center of gravity. Because of their strength, Tesla’s battery packs rarely incur serious damage in accidents. And, in the extremely unlikely event that a fire occurs, the state-of-the-art design of our battery packs ensures that its safety system works as intended and isolates a fire to select areas within the battery while simultaneously venting heat away from the passenger cabin and the vehicle.
While no car can prevent all accidents, we work every day to try to make them much less likely to occur. Active safety features come standard on all Tesla vehicles made after September 2014 for an added layer of safety beyond the physical structure of each car. Because every Tesla is connected, we’re able to use the billions of miles of real-world data from our global fleet – of which more than 1 billion have been driven with Autopilot engaged – to understand the different ways accidents happen. We then develop features that can help Tesla drivers mitigate or avoid accidents. Through over-the-air software updates, we’re able to introduce safety features and enhancements long after a car has been delivered, as well as release updated versions of existing safety features that take into account the most up-to-date real-world data collected by our fleet.
In October 2018, we began voluntarily releasing quarterly safety data in order to provide critical safety information about our vehicles to the public, and in July 2019 we began voluntarily releasing annually updated data about vehicle fires as well. Accident rates among all vehicles on the road can vary from quarter to quarter and can be affected by seasonality, like reduced daylight and inclement weather conditions.

Now no vehicle is perfect, but read this below.

WASHINGTON -- NHTSA disclosed Thursday it has opened 27 investigations into crashes of Tesla vehicles, 23 of which remain active, and at least three of the crashes occurred in recent weeks.


The auto safety agency confirmed Thursday that it will send a team to investigate a recent Tesla crash in the Houston area. Four of the 27 NHTSA investigations have been completed and the results published. Of the completed cases, the earliest was from 2013.


Earlier this week, NHTSA said it was sending its special crash investigation team to probe two crashes in Michigan, including a crash early Wednesday involving a Tesla suspected of being in Autopilot mode when it struck a parked Michigan State Police patrol car.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

This accident points towards user abuse, user error. This isn't an AP issue. It's a user issue.

As someone who was involved in accident investigations, this statement may be true (we shall see), but it also begs a bunch of questions. Was autopilot or FSD on? Did the car have FSD (Mr. Technoking's statements to the contrary, he's been known to be wrong)? What version of autopilot was installed and which updates were actually installed? If "FSD" or "Autopilot", how did it get turned on? What factors led to the decision to turn it on and what remedies, if any, need to be made to prevent a similar occurrence in the future. Is there a design flaw in the Tesla "autopilot" system? Are there post-design developments that need to be considered?

Other questions need to be answered about Tesla's Level 2 driver assistance programs in general. Blanket statements by the Tesla Technoking are neither helpful nor even desirable. Let the various investigators work through this tragedy and make their recommendations to their respective agencies (Primarily the NHTSA and the NTSB).

There are a lot of questions about this accident, some are not very kind to the deceased and their possible judgment. Then again, we're all still alive and Monday morning quarterbacking is quite easy.

To recap here is all we know about the accident:

There were two people in the car.
It hit a tree at an undetermined rate of speed.
There was a post-crash fire.
There are witnesses as to where those people were sitting.
The occupants died.

The occupants had families, lives, and plans for the next day. They had plans for 10 minutes down the road in fact. None of those plans came to fruition and their family's lives were changed forever.

Let this go until the investigations are complete. There'll be plenty of time for recriminations later.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

note if you watch the video - the "add a weight to the wheel" is a very common Tesla owner hack to the point where you can buy a specially built weight for that purpose.

Tesla Will Drive With No One in the Driver's Seat - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports engineers easily tricked our Tesla Model Y this week so that it could drive on Autopilot, the automaker’s driver assistance feature, without anyone in the driver’s seat—a scenario that would present extreme danger if it were repeated on public roads. Over several trips across our half-mile closed test track, our Model Y automatically steered along painted lane lines, but the system did not send out a warning or indicate in any way that the driver’s seat was empty.

“In our evaluation, the system not only failed to make sure the driver was paying attention, but it also couldn’t tell if there was a driver there at all,” says Jake Fisher, CR’s senior director of auto testing, who conducted the experiment. “Tesla is falling behind other automakers like GM and Ford that, on models with advanced driver assist systems, use technology to make sure the driver is looking at the road.”

Our demonstration comes as federal and local investigators continue to probe the cause of a fatal crash Saturday in Texas in which an apparently driverless 2019 Tesla Model S struck a tree, killing the vehicle’s two occupants. Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Mark Herman, who was on scene at the crash, told CR that he’s almost certain that no one was in the driver’s seat when the vehicle crashed. (The Model S in the crash and our Model Y are different models, but they both have Autopilot.)

(more at source)

 

[jhalkias]

As someone who was involved in accident investigations, this statement may be true (we shall see), but it also begs a bunch of questions. Was autopilot or FSD on? Did the car have FSD (Mr. Technoking's statements to the contrary, he's been known to be wrong)? What version of autopilot was installed and which updates were actually installed? If "FSD" or "Autopilot", how did it get turned on? What factors led to the decision to turn it on and what remedies, if any, need to be made to prevent a similar occurrence in the future. Is there a design flaw in the Tesla "autopilot" system? Are there post-design developments that need to be considered?

Other questions need to be answered about Tesla's Level 2 driver assistance programs in general. Blanket statements by the Tesla Technoking are neither helpful nor even desirable. Let the various investigators work through this tragedy and make their recommendations to their respective agencies (Primarily the NHTSA and the NTSB).

There are a lot of questions about this accident, some are not very kind to the deceased and their possible judgment. Then again, we're all still alive and Monday morning quarterbacking is quite easy.

To recap here is all we know about the accident:

There were two people in the car.
It hit a tree at an undetermined rate of speed.
There was a post-crash fire.
There are witnesses as to where those people were sitting.
The occupants died.

The occupants had families, lives, and plans for the next day. They had plans for 10 minutes down the road in fact. None of those plans came to fruition and their family's lives were changed forever.

Let this go until the investigations are complete. There'll be plenty of time for recriminations later.

Well said.

note if you watch the video - the "add a weight to the wheel" is a very common Tesla owner hack to the point where you can buy a specially built weight for that purpose.

Tesla Will Drive With No One in the Driver's Seat - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports engineers easily tricked our Tesla Model Y this week so that it could drive on Autopilot, the automaker’s driver assistance feature, without anyone in the driver’s seat—a scenario that would present extreme danger if it were repeated on public roads. Over several trips across our half-mile closed test track, our Model Y automatically steered along painted lane lines, but the system did not send out a warning or indicate in any way that the driver’s seat was empty.

“In our evaluation, the system not only failed to make sure the driver was paying attention, but it also couldn’t tell if there was a driver there at all,” says Jake Fisher, CR’s senior director of auto testing, who conducted the experiment. “Tesla is falling behind other automakers like GM and Ford that, on models with advanced driver assist systems, use technology to make sure the driver is looking at the road.”

Our demonstration comes as federal and local investigators continue to probe the cause of a fatal crash Saturday in Texas in which an apparently driverless 2019 Tesla Model S struck a tree, killing the vehicle’s two occupants. Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Mark Herman, who was on scene at the crash, told CR that he’s almost certain that no one was in the driver’s seat when the vehicle crashed. (The Model S in the crash and our Model Y are different models, but they both have Autopilot.)

(more at source)

I guess this refutes several countless posts on this thread. Watched the video. Did not hear klaxons going off.

 

[mburtsvt]

As far as operating the doors, Teslas have some...interesting design choices. This crash was reported to be a Tesla Model S, and based on what I've found online, the front inside door handle, while normally working electrically, has a cable backup that should open the door if power is cut.

Edit: I found one post on a Tesla forum that states that, with a power loss, the window remains up after the door handle is pulled, so more force is required to get the window (and hence the door) dislodged from the seal. I can see this being an issue with just about any car that has "drop down" power windows.

To open the back doors of the Model S without power, the occupant is supposed to "fold back the edge of the carpet below the rear seats to expose the mechanical release cable. " Which may not be a simple task if you are injured, disoriented, or on fire.

The Model 3 has no way for a rear seat passenger to open the rear doors if power is cut. (However, the Model 3 rear doors can be opened from a panel on the front door.)

Unbelievable:

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Unbelievable:

WTAF?!

 

[jhalkias]

Unbelievable:

When struggling to get out, refer to owner's manual, get your toolkit out, remove several pieces of moulding, and THEN pull manual release. Pray you are not submerged or on fire or panicked.

 

[Mirak]

That’s insane stuff. Just to be clear, the MME front and rear interior door latch mechanisms are fully mechanical, right?

 

[jhalkias]

That’s insane stuff. Just to be clear, the MME front and rear interior door latch mechanisms are fully mechanical, right?

I think so, but not certain. @SnBGC , do you know the tech specs?

 

[macchiaz-o]

That’s insane stuff. Just to be clear, the MME front and rear interior door latch mechanisms are fully mechanical, right?

As I recall, the front doors have a mechanical release from inside. (Pull the door handle fully.) The rear doors are only electrically released.

 

[trutolife27]

Consumer Reports proved that a Tesla will drive with nobody behind the wheel following fatal crash

Tim Levin
Thu, April 22, 2021, 1:03 PM·3 min read

Consumer Reports demonstrated it's not all that difficult to get around Tesla's safety systems. Tesla

• Consumer Reports showed that it's possible to turn on Tesla Autopilot with nobody behind the wheel.
• The firm's car-testing director was able to sit in the passenger's seat while the Tesla drove itself.
• The demonstration comes after a fatal Tesla crash where authorities said nobody was driving.

Consumer Reports on Thursday proved just how simple it is to fool a Tesla into driving without anybody behind the wheel.
Engineers from the consumer-research organization bypassed Tesla's safety systems on a closed test track to show that - without too much fuss - the carmaker's Autopilot driver-assistance technology can be engaged without anybody in the driver's seat. They posted a video explaining how they did it.
The report comes after authorities said nobody was behind the wheel when a Tesla Model S careened off the road and into a tree in Texas on Saturday, killing its two occupants. Tesla CEO Elon Musk said in a Monday tweet that data logs recovered "so far" show that Autopilot wasn't enabled at the time of the crash. Local police, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, and the National Transportation Safety Board are all investigating the cause of the incident.

Tesla has two methods of ensuring that a driver is paying attention when using Autopilot, an advanced driver-assistance system that keeps a car between lane markings and maintains a set distance to other cars. Both safeguards were easily defeated by Consumer Reports, though the outlet urges that nobody replicate its findings under any circumstances.
Autopilot can only be engaged when the driver's seatbelt is fastened. Consumer Reports engineers bypassed that by fastening the seatbelt before getting in the car. Autopilot also needs to feel some resistance from a driver's hand resting on the steering wheel. Consumer Reports achieved that by hanging a small amount of weight from the wheel.
The result was that Jake Fisher, the outlet's senior director of auto testing, was able to engage Autopilot, bring the car to a stop, climb into the passenger's seat, and bring the car back up to speed from there using a dial on the steering wheel. The Tesla Model Y followed lane markings on Consumer Reports' test track and didn't issue any warning that nobody was behind the wheel.

"In our evaluation, the system not only failed to make sure the driver was paying attention, but it also couldn't tell if there was a driver there at all," Fisher said in the report. "It was a bit frightening when we realized how easy it was to defeat the safeguards, which we proved were clearly insufficient."

Tesla did not return Insider's request for comment.
Consumer Reports' controlled demonstration confirms what has already been displayed in numerous viral videos, like one from November in which a Tesla owner climbs into the back seat and closes his eyes while his car cruises down the highway. In a clip posted in September, a Tesla owner shows it's possible to climb out of a car's window with Autopilot engaged.
The outlet said that Tesla is "falling behind" other automakers when it comes to monitoring driver attention while advanced driver-assistance systems are operating. General Motors' Super Cruise uses internal cameras to make sure a driver is looking at the road, and Ford's upcoming BlueCruise will do the same.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

@trutolife27
https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/texas-tesla-tragedy.5510/post-159083

Consumer Reports proved that a Tesla will drive with nobody behind the wheel following fatal crash

 

[trutolife27]

@trutolife27
https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/texas-tesla-tragedy.5510/post-159083

well, we got it across twice. maybe it will help fix it.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

Unbelievable:

I wasn't sure if this was the one I watched when it first came out, but it is. and yes, it is unbelievable, more specifically that they were allowed to sell the car this way.

When struggling to get out, refer to owner's manual, get your toolkit out, remove several pieces of moulding, and THEN pull manual release. Pray you are not submerged or on fire or panicked.

puts the "can't get to the jump points" thing on the Mach-E somewhat into perspective on the "user accessible" question.

also the "we asked our Tesla service person and they didn't know about this" puts the 1-800 number having trouble with FordPass activation into perspective as well.

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