The EV Naysayers

[Vulnox]

And a general social mentality that uses trains/mass transit more, rather than our rugged American individualism that drives our need to have our own seperate car.

I would be curious to see how trains/mass transit would work in the US in the way some believe when they say our car ownership is due to individualism. I have given this a lot of consideration over the past year, almost any time I have to go somewhere. How would this work with more mass transit? And I keep coming up empty, at least without it taking me an hour to do what would be ten minutes with my own vehicle.

Maybe if the entire US had developed differently and 90+% of the US population was within five distinct population centers, but it's just so huge and spread out, much of which happened a couple centuries before any of us were born. I would like to see more mass transit, would kill for faster train systems between major cities. But just can't see where most people outside of New York/Chicago/LA type areas could do without being a two vehicle household for a family of 2+ (outside of situations where both work at home). At least without adding significant additional time. If people have to get up at 5am to get to work by 8am because they are in the suburbs but work downtown in a more spread out suburban area like Southeast Michigan (Suburban Detroit), man that's a tough sell that goes beyond rugged individualism.

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[Mirak]

I'd agree that current EVs can't replace all vehicles (looking at you and your ICE ban, California), but I'd argue that a majority of vehicles could easily be replaced by EVs. Go look at pictures of the morning commutes of major cities with tens of thousands of vehicles idling and stuck in stop and go traffic to get 30 miles to work. Those would be perfect to replace with EVs.

You see tens of thousands of vehicles that serve no purpose other than a commute. I see (likely) tens of thousands of vehicles that commute 95% of the time, but their owners still occasionally want to get out of the city. And I think I’m probably right. People buy a car for all use cases.

And if the owners of these cars really never leave leave the city, as you infer, how many of these city dwellers own a garage where they can easily charge overnight?

Your suppositions just don’t hold up. This is what I’m trying to open your (collectively) eyes to.

 

[mattyhillnepp]

I’ll never understand why people think that everyone drives 2000 miles on a daily basis when it comes to EVs

the US might be spread out, but most people don’t drive very far. In most of the country people live relatively close to work. Most trips aren’t that long and the average total daily mileage for US drivers is 37 miles.

 

[Mirak]

They tried and couldn’t get it through the Senate. If you don’t understand how that’s possible just look at how long one Senator has been holding up every flag-rank promotion in the military over a social issue.

I seem to recall a time not too far distant when Dems controlled a senate majority strong enough to ram through Obamacare. And yet…

The point is not to make this political, but to demonstrate that fuel subsidies are not really a partisan issue. It is also a massive red herring to the debate over whether current EVs are suitable for most people. You might as well rail about ag subsidies.

For example, I honestly don’t know how much we spend a year on oil and gas subsidies, but I would bet you that on a per-ICE basis, it pales in comparison to the $7,500-$12,500 (federal and state) subsidies per EV. RED HERRING.

I don’t know why any of what I say is so controversial. I mostly love my EV. I’ve accepted the drawbacks for my use case. But thinking the majority of Americans should by an EV with current battery tech is like trying to ram a square peg into a round hole.

Why do EV enthusiasts and environmentalists do this?! What is the rush? I genuinely believe that in another ten years, there will be a new generation of battery tech that makes this all a moot point!

 

[Vulnox]

You see tens of thousands of vehicles that serve no purpose other than a commute. I see (likely) tens of thousands of vehicles that commute 95% of the time, but their owners still occasionally want to get out of the city. And I think I’m probably right. People buy a car for all use cases.

And if the owners of these cars really never leave leave the city, as you infer, how many of these city dwellers own a garage where they can easily charge overnight?

Your suppositions just don’t hold up. This is what I’m trying to open your (collectively) eyes to.

How many of us have gas stations at our home? I don't get this argument that EVs are not suitable if you can't charge at home, buy an ICE, where you can't... fill up at home.

Yeah it's quicker to get gas, obviously, but when you're talking about 95% commute stopping once a week to charge 20-80% at a DCFC isn't impossible. And before claiming that the current infrastructure can't cover everyone doing that, well everyone doesn't currently own EVs. The DCFC infrastructure will grow as EV sales grow, just like gas stations had to.

My brother-in-law got an Ioniq and lives in New Castle, Colorado, not a major population center by any stretch. He doesn't charge at home and stops at a local DCFC every so often as needed. They love their EV.

Again, there are issues and one size doesn't fit all, but broad claims of it not being a perfectly suitable solution are generally unfounded once someone actually does it.

 

[Mirak]

I’ll never understand why people think that everyone drives 2000 miles on a daily basis when it comes to EVs

 

[mattyhillnepp]

Straw men like “people want to get out of the city” which is easily done with most current EVs

 

[ChehRob]

When those plug-in hybrids got up to 45-mile electric range they have become compelling for a lot of people. And the odd thing is for all the alleged complications CU has found many of them amongst the most reliable vehicles made.

 

[Vulnox]

I seem to recall a time not too far distant when Dems controlled a senate majority strong enough to ram through Obamacare. And yet…

The point is not to make this political, but to demonstrate that fuel subsidies are not really a partisan issue. It is also a massive red herring to the debate over whether current EVs are suitable for most people. You might as well rail about ag subsidies.

For example, I honestly don’t know how much we spend a year on oil and gas subsidies, but I would bet you that on a per-ICE basis, it pales in comparison to the $7,500-$12,500 (federal and state) subsidies per EV. RED HERRING.

I don’t know why any of what I say is so controversial. I mostly love my EV. I’ve accepted the drawbacks for my use case. But thinking the majority of Americans should by an EV with current battery tech is like trying to ram a square peg into a round hole.

Why do EV enthusiasts and environmentalists do this?! What is the rush? I genuinely believe that in another ten years, there will be a new generation of battery tech that makes this all a moot point!

" U.S. fossil fuel subsidies stretch across the U.S. tax code, which makes detailing their costs complex. The IMF estimates they stood at $760 billion in 2022, a figure topped only by China. "

$760 Billion, which may not include environmental impact and health costs related to smog/pollution.

Making it a per-vehicle cost is tough. You can't just spread it over vehicles on the road in the US, because not all of those are fossil fuel and not all oil/gas usage is vehicle to begin with. Not all BEVs qualify for $7500+, either due to income limits, vehicle cost limits, or vehicle components. It's funny to pick $7500 as your floor in this comparison on a forum for a vehicle that I believe is still just $3750. Plus used EVs get an even smaller amount, or nothing at all, while we are constantly paying the oil/gas subsidy costs regardless of new or used ICE.

Nothing political about it and it's a complex issue for sure. But if we put $760 Billion/yr towards BEV development and infrastructure we wouldn't be getting completely steamrolled in this area by China and others.

 

[Mirak]

How many of us have gas stations at our home? I don't get this argument that EVs are not suitable if you can't charge at home, buy an ICE, where you can't... fill up at home.

Yeah it's quicker to get gas, obviously, but when you're talking about 95% commute stopping once a week to charge 20-80% at a DCFC isn't impossible. And before claiming that the current infrastructure can't cover everyone doing that, well everyone doesn't currently own EVs. The DCFC infrastructure will grow as EV sales grow, just like gas stations had to.

My brother-in-law got an Ioniq and lives in New Castle, Colorado, not a major population center by any stretch. He doesn't charge at home and stops at a local DCFC every so often as needed. They love their EV.

Again, there are issues and one size doesn't fit all, but broad claims of it not being a perfectly suitable solution are generally unfounded once someone actually does it.

Your argument is not off to a good start when you start comparing the abundance and speed gas fueling to DCFC.

Moreover, you are making a bunch of straw man mischaracterizations of what I’m saying. I think you must surely know this. Why do it?

Nobody is saying it has to be “perfectly suitable.” And when did “suitable” become “not impossible”?

Just because you and indeed many EV enthusiasts don’t find it a pain in the ass to hunt for a fast charger and taking 30-45 minutes every 150 miles when you’re trying to take even an infrequent road trip, that doesn’t mean most Americans agree with you. Get out of your bubble.

Why do you even want more Americans to join you in line for a fast charge? Why not enjoy your car and be content with other Americans waiting for the tech to improve? I just don’t get it.

 

[Mirak]

" U.S. fossil fuel subsidies stretch across the U.S. tax code, which makes detailing their costs complex. The IMF estimates they stood at $760 billion in 2022, a figure topped only by China. "

$760 Billion, which may not include environmental impact and health costs related to smog/pollution.

Making it a per-vehicle cost is tough. You can't just spread it over vehicles on the road in the US, because not all of those are fossil fuel and not all oil/gas usage is vehicle to begin with. Not all BEVs qualify for $7500+, either due to income limits, vehicle cost limits, or vehicle components. It's funny to pick $7500 as your floor in this comparison on a forum for a vehicle that I believe is still just $3750. Plus used EVs get an even smaller amount, or nothing at all, while we are constantly paying the oil/gas subsidy costs regardless of new or used ICE.

Nothing political about it and it's a complex issue for sure. But if we put $760 Billion/yr towards BEV development and infrastructure we wouldn't be getting completely steamrolled in this area by China and others.

Cool. Spread 30% (supposedly the percentage of o&g consumptiok attributable to cars and trucks) of that $760 billion over the number of ICE cars sold last year. I don’t think that’s gonna come close to $7.5 billion spread over the number of EVs sold.

 

[Mirak]

I would be curious to see how trains/mass transit would work in the US in the way some believe when they say our car ownership is due to individualism. I have given this a lot of consideration over the past year, almost any time I have to go somewhere. How would this work with more mass transit? And I keep coming up empty, at least without it taking me an hour to do what would be ten minutes with my own vehicle.

Maybe if the entire US had developed differently and 90+% of the US population was within five distinct population centers, but it's just so huge and spread out, much of which happened a couple centuries before any of us were born. I would like to see more mass transit, would kill for faster train systems between major cities. But just can't see where most people outside of New York/Chicago/LA type areas could do without being a two vehicle household for a family of 2+ (outside of situations where both work at home). At least without adding significant additional time. If people have to get up at 5am to get to work by 8am because they are in the suburbs but work downtown in a more spread out suburban area like Southeast Michigan (Suburban Detroit), man that's a tough sell that goes beyond rugged individualism.

Hey we agree!

 

[Vulnox]

Your argument is not off to a good start when you start comparing the abundance and speed gas fueling to DCFC.

Moreover, you are making a bunch of straw man mischaracterizations of what I’m saying. I think you must surely know this. Why do it?

Nobody is saying it has to be “perfectly suitable.” And when did “suitable” become “not impossible”?

Just because you and indeed many EV enthusiasts don’t find it a pain in the ass to hunt for a fast charger and taking 30-45 minutes every 150 miles when you’re trying to take even an infrequent road trip, that doesn’t mean most Americans agree with you. Get out of your bubble.

Why do you even want more Americans to join you in line for a fast charge? Why not enjoy your cat and be content with other Americans waiting for the tech to improve? I just don’t get it.

What straw man mischaracterizations? Actually engage in the discussion, don't just wave things away with generalities. I didn't say "most Americans" have to agree with me, and I don't live in a bubble of any kind. There is a middle ground between BEVs won't work for most people as you seem to by going for, and BEVs work for everyone, which i am not saying.

You seem to just want to attack the individual, passing off their counter arguments by saying they live in a bubble, or are being political, or whatever else keeps you from actually having just a nice discussion on something.

Certainly not helping throwing out these charging time numbers. On a 289 mile trip, we have one stop of 15 minutes. If doing longer trips, you are almost certainly going to be stopping to stretch your legs and eat anyway, acting like it's all just sunk time because it isn't a gas station isn't having a genuine conversation on the topic. On a long road trip, say over 8 hours, you are totally spending more time charging than fueling up an ICE vehicle, not even going to pretend that isn't the case. But you are almost certainly stopping for 15+ minutes anyway on trips that long, especially if you have kids with you. I have done some pretty long straight through trips, like Michigan to Florida straight through, but very few people I know or have known do stuff like that. I doubt I would do it now, was a lot easier at 19.

 

[Vulnox]

Hey we agree!

I suspect we agree on more than we disagree, it's always tough to get a full picture of someone on a text discussion as we always infer certain things maybe not even said.

I don't counter some things because I think all is rosy, I can only come from my own experiences or those I know well enough. We all live complex lives though.

My dad, for example, works in skilled trades and basically goes out and helps companies like Ford/Tesla/Chrysler when building out new manufacturing plants and does a lot of the machine/tool building. He drives between Michigan and California without stopping at a hotel, just stops at rest stops long enough to nap for a few hours and finishes the drive.

I fully accept and have said to him as much that there's almost no BEV I would think is right for him at the moment. He drives with a destination in mind, and that's it. But his situation is rare when compared to the entire US. Everyone should make their own calculations on the subject, my side of it is just that it isn't as dire as it's sometimes painted to be for most.

 

[AhardFSU]

Just because you and indeed many EV enthusiasts don’t find it a pain in the ass to hunt for a fast charger and taking 30-45 minutes every 150 miles when you’re trying to take even an infrequent road trip, that doesn’t mean most Americans agree with you. Get out of your bubble.

Why do you even want more Americans to join you in line for a fast charge? Why not enjoy your car and be content with other Americans waiting for the tech to improve? I just don’t get it.

I wouldn't say that some people advocating for EVs are in bubbles, but everyone has blindspots. We're past the early stage but the EV transition in the US is still in it's infancy. While there are people at this point in time that don't want to spend 30-40 mins charging to 80%, people, opinions, and technology do change. So while everyone will not want an EV, that doesn't mean that others will not come around to it 5 or 10 years time.

The EV transition is not a race but more of a long journey. As a country we're moving along the EV path and that path will have all sorts of obstacles.

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