VW Solid State Battery

[phidauex]

I beg you to please ignore any press release that doesn't include a working prototype with independent testing. I work in this industry and one of our mottos is "liars, damned liars, and battery suppliers". They know that they can continue to get investment as long as they say good sounding things, right up until they can't hide the truth anymore, then pull their golden ripcord and float off to the next project.

As for batteries themselves, lithium is a very mature technology, and has been improving steadily every year - the batteries we have now would have been miraculous 10 years ago, so give them some credit.

In order to improve charging speeds, two things need to go up - the battery voltage, and the chemistry stability. Stationary energy storage systems (grid scale) are up to 1500VDC now, and we are knocking on the door of 2kV. A charging cable will always be limited by the resistance of copper, and even with cooling a 2000A cable will barely be practical - you might be able to put some kind of gantry on it to support the cable weight during charging, but it isn't the "fuel pump handle analog" you are thinking of. At 1600V, you could run 4X the power for the same thermal losses as our MachEs, or 2X the 800V systems.

Chemistry stability is the real devil though, because longevity and charge rate are inversely proportional. In order to get 20 year lifespans out of the best current technology we limit the charge rate to 0.25C, which would be equivalent to a 4 hour charge time. EVs give up some longevity in order to get faster charge times, but you can only push it so far. There are drone batteries that can handle 50C charges and discharges, but they may only last a handful of cycles at that kind of charge rate.

I agree that batteries need to get better over time, and so do L2 and DCFC charging networks, but this isn't going to be magically solved with a better battery that just pops onto the market. Even solid state will take many years to mature, and our grid will need a lot of upgrades before multi-MW charging stations can be built in many places. Might as well do what you can now and enjoy the benefits, perfect though they aren't.

Sponsored

 

[Space_Pony]

The reason ICEV owners don't charge at home is because they don't have to. It takes 5 minutes at a gas station to recover 100% of 400 miles of range (most ICEV carry such a fuel load).

The system works for anyone regardless of what type of dwelling they live in and how they use their vehicle.

Your about the 3rd person to state that EV owners really don't need to use the public charging infrastructure. Yet, if the majority of EV owners charge at home and drive 40 miles a day, then why is the government spending billions of taxpayer funds to build the public network?

And by the time the magic solid state battery comes to fruition the old tech battery charging infrastructure will be built and then obsoleted because EVs will recover 600 miles in 5 minutes.

The Federal government has a bad habit of spending lots of money that they don't have. The Federal debt recently passed $34,000,000,000,000. It's usually all about buying votes.

 

[Guss-E 2021]

Hmm, maybe wake me up when there is a BEV, on a lot, I can buy (at a reasonable price) that uses a solid state battery.

For now I'll take more 350 kW DCFCs and cars that can uses them. More available chargers and faster charging still goes a long way (pun sort of intended).

 

[Space_Pony]

True but I think before we see mass DC fast charging we will see Mass level 2. Think about a parking lot with half of the spots having level 2 chargers. Work places, malls, restaurants etc.. The great thing about EVs is they can be charged while we’re do other things. We need to stop trying to make the EV experience the same as an ICE car. DC fast charging is only really needed for road trips

Why would I hook up to a L2 away from home, unless it's free? I don't normally go to stores over 100 miles away, so the home charger will cover it unless I'm on a road trip.

 

[mkhuffman]

our grid will need a lot of upgrades before multi-MW charging stations can be built in many places.

I am in Nags Head, NC this week. Tesla just installed a new SC station here. There are now two in within a few miles of each other. (The new one is a V3, the old one is a V2.)

When they were putting in the new one, Dominion Electric had to upgrade the power distribution towers all along the road leading to the new SC station. I don't know, but I suspect there isn't enough capacity for more DCFC stations to be built nearby without more infrastructure upgrades. Time will tell if they put in a EVgo or EA station here, but after what they did to put in the SC station, I will not be surprised if it takes years before that happens.

There are places where putting in a bank of 750-1,000 kW chargers will be impossible, or just way too expensive. So I agree, infrastructure is a huge barrier preventing ultra-fast charging.

On a side note, that new V3 station has 12 chargers. EA is pathetic, with their stupid four charger stations and half that are usually broken.

 

[Old_Norm]

Charge time doesn’t need to match gas refueling time because public chargers are really only necessary for road trips which are a small fraction of most drivers’ total mileage. Most people “fuel up” at home most of the time.

As already mentioned, a 5 minute charge isn’t feasible for long range consumer vehicles.

You are talking reality vs perception. How many people have you talked to or read about that say, "When BEVs get 500 miles to a charge then I'll consider one?" As you indicated, the vast majority of those people will rarely if ever, drive their EVs anywhere near 500 miles in one trip. It's akin to having a 700 HP muscle car to go grocery shopping or to drop the kids off at school.

 

[mkhuffman]

All they have to do is increase energy density.

You make it sound so easy, but that’s pretty much the hardest thing to do.

Even the hypothetical make believe versions of solid state batteries only seem to reduce weight by 30% or so.

Yep. I am just pointing out the technology exists today and all that is needed is some relatively minor improvements.

The Rivian R1T was originally going to hold a 180 kWh battery. Instead the Max Pack is 149 kWh (142 usable). IMO, the 180 kWh battery is pretty close to what we need to make the use case viable for the average person.

Rivian can put a 180 kWh battery in the R1T, they just chose not to. So while that won't equate to 600 miles of range due to the weight and size of the R1T, it would be pretty close to 500 in ideal conditions. Again, not too far off from the "pie in the sky" claim.

Lucid gets 500 miles of range from a 118 kWh battery. You don't need much more to hit 600 miles.

We really are not that far away from the claim - except for the five minute charging bit. That is pretty stupid. However, I will be all over a 600 mile (EPA) vehicle that can 80% charge in 20 minutes. That will be awesome. And not that hard to do. I can see that capability being pretty common in 10 years.

 

[Mach1E]

Yep. I am just pointing out the technology exists today and all that is needed is some relatively minor improvements.

The Rivian R1T was originally going to hold a 180 kWh battery. Instead the Max Pack is 149 kWh (142 usable). IMO, the 180 kWh battery is pretty close to what we need to make the use case viable for the average person.

Rivian can put a 180 kWh battery in the R1T, they just chose not to. So while that won't equate to 600 miles of range due to the weight and size of the R1T, it would be pretty close to 500 in ideal conditions. Again, not too far off from the "pie in the sky" claim.

Lucid gets 500 miles of range from a 118 kWh battery. You don't need much more to hit 600 miles.

We really are not that far away from the claim - except for the five minute charging bit. That is pretty stupid. However, I will be all over a 600 mile (EPA) vehicle that can 80% charge in 20 minutes. That will be awesome. And not that hard to do. I can see that capability being pretty common in 10 years.

Except that the Rivian and Lucid aren’t even close to what we are talking about.

They’re just using very expensive, very large, and very heavy batteries.

It may help the range problem, but makes charging times longer, the cars significantly more expensive and does nothing for energy density.

I honestly think looking for a “better battery” or bigger battery is the complete wrong solution.

If we want to look for a solution to all the problems with todays tech it’s one of these two-

PHeV

or

Gas range extenders


Range- check
Price- check
Charging speed- check
Infrastructure- check
Environment- check
Weight- check
Performance- check


Pretty much checks all the boxes.

The only complaints against the above I have heard is you have to get an oil change once a year (Jiffy lube 15 minutes, $40).

Seems pretty minor compared to tens of billions in infrastructure costs and DC charging times and cost.

 

[Mjsabie]

Why would I hook up to a L2 away from home, unless it's free? I don't normally go to stores over 100 miles away, so the home charger will cover it unless I'm on a road trip.

Because many people live in apartments or in other situation where they cannot charge at home. I think many will be free. I can already charge for free at AMC while watching a movie. I think many employers will add them too.

 

[Mjsabie]

Except that the Rivian and Lucid aren’t even close to what we are talking about.

They’re just using very expensive, very large, and very heavy batteries.

It may help the range problem, but makes charging times longer, the cars significantly more expensive and does nothing for energy density.

I honestly think looking for a “better battery” or bigger battery is the complete wrong solution.

If we want to look for a solution to all the problems with todays tech it’s one of these two-

PHeV

or

Gas range extenders


Range- check
Price- check
Charging speed- check
Infrastructure- check
Environment- check
Weight- check
Performance- check


Pretty much checks all the boxes.

The only complaints against the above I have heard is you have to get an oil change once a year (Jiffy lube 15 minutes, $40).

Seems pretty minor compared to tens of billions in infrastructure costs and DC charging times and cost.

PHEV’s are the worst. They are like the worst of both not the best.

 

[Mach1E]

PHEV’s are the worst. They are like the worst of both not the best.

PHeV are the best of both worlds. I made a list of why. Feel free to tell me how they’re the worst though.

I’ll add to the list based on uses rather than features-

City driving- same as BEV, better than ICE

Highway- better than both

Refueling- better than both

Maintenance- worse than BEV, equal to ICE. But how much maintenance do you really do? Oil change once a yr.

 

[ATL]

As noted here and on other threads, the need for very fast charging for personal EVs is mostly in 2 situations: 1) where there is a preponderance of people with no access to home overnight level 2 connections, like apartment/condo complexes, and 2) on major highways while taking long distance trips.

There is a real need to serve these areas with large numbers of L3 EVSE but that in turn needs high capacity sources of power, which aren't typically available outside industrial areas. Getting all the prerequisites in the right location is a big key to facilitate the needed infrastructure.

In the long term, the price of charging will have to support these costs, like the price of gasoline has long supported all of the hoses that exist at every freeway exit, plus the upstream distribution facilities.

In the short term, governments can choose to incent , with grants, subsidies, policies, and programs, and voters can choose to support this approach...or not.

 

[Mach1E]

As noted here and on other threads, the need for very fast charging for personal EVs is mostly in 2 situations: 1) where there is a preponderance of people with no access to home overnight level 2 connections, like apartment/condo complexes, and 2) on major highways while taking long distance trips.

There is a real need to serve these areas with large numbers of L3 EVSE but that in turn needs high capacity sources of power, which aren't typically available outside industrial areas. Getting all the prerequisites in the right location is a big key to facilitate the needed infrastructure.

In the long term, the price of charging will have to support these costs, like the price of gasoline has long supported all of the hoses that exist at every freeway exit, plus the upstream distribution facilities.

In the short term, governments can choose to incent , with grants, subsidies, policies, and programs, and voters can choose to support this approach...or not.

Apartments and condos need charging at home as well. L2 on the road doesn’t solve their problem.

I see L2 and L3 charging on the road as a bandaid fix, not a permanent solution.

It’s too slow and too expensive (for the consumer).

 

[ATL]

Apartments and condos need charging at home as well. L2 on the road doesn’t solve their problem.

I see L2 and L3 charging on the road as a bandaid fix, not a permanent solution.

It’s too slow and too expensive (for the consumer).

My point was the apt. & condos-especially existing ones-are among locations needing fast charging infrastructure. I totally agree that L2 on the road is no solution.

 

[Mach1E]

I've been a proponent of the non-plug-in pure serial hybrid electric vehicle (PSHEV). 15kWh battery charged on board by an ICE specifically designed to power an electrical generator. With the engine not mechanically connected to the drive wheels, the engine can be made of lighter, higher temperature resistant materials such as ceramic and vastly improve the heat energy transfer for propulsion via the electric drive. The engine can then be tuned for maximum combustion efficiency within a very narrow powerband (RPM range). The Chevy Volt proved this architecture works and returned above 50 MPG in gas mode. The Volt used an off the self ICEV engine and was mechanically connected to the drive wheels though it mostly just provided electrical generation. Change the architecture to a specific engine design for electrical generation only and a far higher MPG rating can be achieved. Calculate in the energy loss of moving electrons from the generation site into the EV battery and I'd bet the total energy loss of PSHEV to be on par with current and future BEV.

Such an architecture is scalable and multi-platform adaptable. Most importantly it does not disrupt the petrochemical industrial supply base and requires no electrical extensive grid enhancements to provide private and public charging of tens of millions of future BEV. And most importantly it requires zero investment in a non-economically-viable BEV public charging infrastructure network.

Yet, because climate fearers want to eliminate engine exhaust, the PSHEV technology will never be developed.

Fear not (for now).

Dodge has a Ram truck coming out this year. 600+ hp electric drive plus a v6 range extender. I hope it sells well.

It will be the perfect experiment because they’ll still sell their gas trucks as well as a full electric in 2024. We shall see which is the most popular.

Sponsored