Brofessional

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This just isn't true...the magnetic field on a perm mag can't be tuned dynamically as much as an induction motor so the design usually means there is some RPM range where the constant torque ends and you can maintain power as the revs increase sorta...but loss of torque as you speed up...they effectively run out of breath...this is part of what killed the single motor Model 3...it has good power off the line, but just looses it's breath.

Now this doesn't mean Ford is giving these motor full beans at the top end I guess. But there is no reason to assume this could never be a hardware limitation in how they have the car geared and motors designed. There is 100% going to be an RPM point where there is just no way to maintain power and torque on a perm mag. With induction you have more ability to do that, but lose some efficiency and have a heavier motor...there is a big compromise going to induction...but you don't need to add weight/failure point of a gear changing gear box. So at end of day it ends up close...Tesla doesn't have ton of experience with gear changes, but wanted top end power so has at least one induction motor in their cars.

Ford seems to have went a route where they have a very exciting car, but that loses it's breath without an induction motor or gear box...but may end up close to the same efficiency and 0-60 of a MYP even with more battery weight and less uglied Aero focused design.
I just cannot imagine continuing to dig when you've made it clear to anyone who knows a fair amount about electric motors that you have no idea what you're talking about. Induction motors have several benefits and compromises relative to perm magnet motors. They're typically cheaper to build (no rare earth metals) but they're also usually heavier, have increased cooling requirements, and usually have lower torque ratings (in part because a small percentage slip is inherent in their design). But they are primarily advantageous in EVs because you can REDUCE voltages under light loads (analogous to cylinder deactivation in combustion engines) making them overall more efficient and increasing range.

Can you imaging how dumb it would sound if I started posting about how Toyota's 3.5L is slower than Honda's 3.5L because it doesn't have cylinder deactivation?
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I just cannot imagine continuing to dig when you've made it clear to anyone who knows a fair amount about electric motors that you have no idea what you're talking about. Induction motors have several benefits and compromises relative to perm magnet motors. They're typically cheaper to build (no rare earth metals) but they're also usually heavier, have increased cooling requirements, and usually have lower torque ratings (in part because a small percentage slip is inherent in their design). But they are primarily advantageous in EVs because you can REDUCE voltages under light loads (analogous to cylinder deactivation in combustion engines) making them overall more efficient and increasing range.
One thing Tesla has done to take advantage of the front induction motor is to pull the extra heat from it, when needed for supercharging and preconditioning the battery. In this screen shot you can see the front stator motor being able to generate much more heat than the rear stator motor.

When the Model 3 or Y is parked and preconditioning, both the front and rear motors pull 3.5 kWh to generate a non-motive waveform of energy to generate heat. When the vehicle is in motion, the rear motor generates heat naturally but the BMS will still have the front motor generate heat, requiring about 2.0 kWh of energy. There was a recent update around March that allowed the BMS to begin the preconditioning process much sooner than previous software allowed. The old software would only start preconditioning 20 minutes prior to the destination. The latest software, it can start 50-60 minutes prior to the supercharger destination. It's a great design in both the hardware and software, something most Tesla owners will never realize as to what's going on in the background. The other thing with the front induction motor is that it's not active unless the car's rear end loses traction, and/or power is needed. It's 100% RWD until needed, so that helps with efficiency.

Ford Mustang Mach-E My GT Performance Edition (GTPE) first track launch with videos, timeslip! 0-60 in 4.12s, 1/4 mile in 12.657 @ 100.02 mph 1631546136945
 

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fyi Tesla still makes the single motor Model 3 (SR+). They removed the mid range RWD (Single Motor), and the dual motor long range RWD. This was mostly done to consolidate their product lines to make it easier to plan and manufacture, removing the lower demand configurations. It's a shame since the LR RWD 3 was efficient and offered good performance (~ 4.7 0-60).
Yeah...I lose track of which Model 3/Y's that were promised ever end up existing and which initially existed and still exist for more than some token timeframe.
 

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I just cannot imagine continuing to dig when you've made it clear to anyone who knows a fair amount about electric motors that you have no idea what you're talking about. Induction motors have several benefits and compromises relative to perm magnet motors. They're typically cheaper to build (no rare earth metals) but they're also usually heavier, have increased cooling requirements, and usually have lower torque ratings (in part because a small percentage slip is inherent in their design). But they are primarily advantageous in EVs because you can REDUCE voltages under light loads (analogous to cylinder deactivation in combustion engines) making them overall more efficient and increasing range.

Can you imaging how dumb it would sound if I started posting about how Toyota's 3.5L is slower than Honda's 3.5L because it doesn't have cylinder deactivation?
You are repeating basically what I said...Induction is heavier, less efficient, and hotter. But as long as the design allows it you can rev an induction motor as high as the design allows and still generate decent or even max power at high RPM. A perm mag motor loses power at a good pace after it's goes past it's constant torque point when Torque starts to drop. Large finger induction motors tend to gain torque upto some torque waterfall drop off point that tends to be at 90% or so of it's max RPM...so you can design an induction motor that will tend to build torque as revs go up actually....with a perm mag motor you have constant torque from zero to some RPM to some max power point and then it all starts to drop.

Basically the Induction and Perm Mag have complimentary torque/power curves across the rev range allowing the perm mag to be the brute force at the launch and the induction to become the grunt to get you toward the top speed.
 
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You are repeating basically what I said...Induction is heavier, less efficient, and hotter. But as long as the design allows it you can rev an induction motor as high as the design allows and still generate decent or even max power at high RPM. A perm mag motor loses power at a good pace after it's goes past it's constant torque point when Torque starts to drop. Large finger induction motors tend to gain torque upto some torque waterfall drop off point that tends to be at 90% or so of it's max RPM...so you can design an induction motor that will tend to build torque as revs go up actually....with a perm mag motor you have constant torque from zero to some RPM to some max power point and then it all starts to drop.

Basically the Induction and Perm Mag have complimentary torque/power curves across the rev range allowing the perm mag to be the brute force at the launch and the induction to become the grunt to get you toward the top speed.
That "peak torque at 90% of rpm" you speak of is the torque curve for constant frequency excitation in an induction motor. In other words, that's what the torque curve would look like IF THEY DIDN'T UTILIZE VARIABLE FREQUENCY EXCITATION which is the whole reason IMs even work in EVs. Like do you have any idea how bad a torque curve that hits peak at f'ing 12000 rpm is for an automobile?

Instead, the frequency is constantly varied to produce a torque curve over the entire range of rpms that is almost identical to an IPM. Go look at the actual torque curves of teslas with IMs. Minimal differences after constant power as IMs and IPMs handle field weakening differently, but the torque curve is otherwise the same.

Again--You. Don't. Know. What. You're. Talking. About.
 
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That "peak torque at 90% of rpm" you speak of is the torque curve for constant frequency excitation in an induction motor. In other words, that's what the torque curve would look like IF THEY DIDN'T UTILIZE VARIABLE FREQUENCY EXCITATION which is the whole reason IMs even work in EVs. Like do you have any idea how bad a torque curve that hits peak at f'ing 12000 rpm is for an automobile?

Instead, the frequency is constantly varied to produce a torque curve over the entire range of rpms that is almost identical to an IPM. Go look at the actual torque curves of teslas with IMs. Minimal differences after constant power as IMs and IPMs handle field weakening differently, but the torque curve is otherwise the same.

Again--You. Don't. Know. What. You're. Talking. About.
Ok...so as far as gearing and general point of which motor is doing what, which motor is probably drawing the most power and providing more of the acceleration on a Y/3 after 60mph? I just have a feeling the IM with more ability to do flux management allows it to be the better choice at some points in rev band and that is why it's not a dual IPM design rather than pure cost concerns. You can also get an IM to free wheel without drag.

Not an expert on these perm mag induction EV motors for sure...but somehow would think Tesla would have just used two if there wasn't some reason they were harder to use for broad acceleration into higher speed ranges. Not that they can't be used for max speed, but guessing it gets more complicated than if you have IM and IPM. Generally seems you end up with 3 and 4 motors once they are all IPM and things are very performance oriented.

And the Model 3 RWD cars seems to show even if you can juice them to have a good bit more power in that 0-60 range they start to equalize somehow as you push past that as far as the power to keep the acceleration party going. Seems the goal to go all IPM would be you need to be traction limited until you have pretty steep gearing so the torque drop isn't as big of deal.

Basically I don't think we can be certain the Mach-E design has a great way to just push more juice and get better power later in the rev range. It may just have a wind and such that means it runs out of air at higher revs...all to maximize it's lower rev grunt while keeping the cruise speed level as efficient as possible and such. And I get the impression some of this is why others have IM also or use a gearbox with more than one gear.

I generally don't think we are on as different pages as you are thinking.
 

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idon’t think they can finish more cars in enough time… and I don’t think they can stop all reviews… for once the chip shortage is actually helping us consumers.

I can’t wait for the first review that will put Ford on the spotlight and then they will have to make a statement… I don’t think they can hold off the reviews until October….
Looked on cars.com and all 5 of the GT listed within a 100 miles of my location are $2- 3,000 below MSRP.
 

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Looked on cars.com and all 5 of the GT listed within a 100 miles of my location are $2- 3,000 below MSRP.
Wow - if that isn't a wake up call for FOMOCO, I don't know what is. The dealers cannot be happy.
 

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Looked on cars.com and all 5 of the GT listed within a 100 miles of my location are $2- 3,000 below MSRP.
Actually if they have already been Titled to the owner, they are ineligible for the $7,500 Fed Tax Credit, so are effectively selling for $5,500 above MSRP
 

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Actually if they have already been Titled to the owner, they are ineligible for the $7,500 Fed Tax Credit, so are effectively selling for $5,500 above MSRP
No chance there are used ones for sale yet, let alone 5 within 100 miles. Just cancelled orders or “coming soon” click bait for cars already sold/ordered.
 
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Mach1E

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Looked on cars.com and all 5 of the GT listed within a 100 miles of my location are $2- 3,000 below MSRP.
You made me curious so I looked as well.

Found one discounted near me.

Fine print- “$2,250 - Exp. 10/08/2021 Retail Trade-in Assistance Bonus Cash”

Not really a discount on the price yet, but you made me look.
 

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Actually if they have already been Titled to the owner, they are ineligible for the $7,500 Fed Tax Credit, so are effectively selling for $5,500 above MSRP
All new and at dealers.
No chance there are used ones for sale yet, let alone 5 within 100 miles. Just cancelled orders or “coming soon” click bait for cars already sold/ordered.
All marked new. You could be correct on the 3 at one dealer. One could be a cancelled order, but with pics and the other one says available for test drive. Why would they be advertising below MSRP? I have not looked at many ads while I wait for my GT, but this seemed unusual?
 

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Actually if they have already been Titled to the owner, they are ineligible for the $7,500 Fed Tax Credit, so are effectively selling for $5,500 above MSRP
All marked new. You think new car dealers are taking advantage of the tax credit?
 

Mach1E

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All new and at dealers.

All marked new. You could be correct on the 3 at one dealer. One could be a cancelled order, but with pics and the other one says available for test drive. Why would they be advertising below MSRP? I have not looked at many ads while I wait for my GT, but this seemed unusual?
In a former life I did advertising for car dealers. They put anything they can in the ads as discounts and then include a bunch of disclaimers.

Could be “military only” or “with special financing” or trade assistance like the one I found (which isn’t really anything if they give you a terrible offer on a trade in).
 

Cjpayne

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In a former life I did advertising for car dealers. They put anything they can in the ads as discounts and then include a bunch of disclaimers.

Could be “military only” or “with special financing” or trade assistance like the one I found (which isn’t really anything if they give you a terrible offer on a trade in).
I am fortunate to have a great dealer to work with as I am a trusting soul. One of my defects. I always want to believe the best in everyone. I hope I have a great experience with my GT so I can write about it on this forum.
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