Federal administration proposes new rules for EV charging stations

[Blue highway]

One of the tricky things is the sporadic/random nature of people charging via DCFC. Which makes it difficult to build expensive stations that will get enough business to support themselves, but also enough capacity for peak times.

Unlike gasoline, most EV charging takes place at home/work/hotel on L2. Which means locals typically won't be giving business to nearby DCFC stations. That's where most of the regular/routine business comes from that supports a gas station.

Travel routes are supported mostly by travelers, but the 20-30 minute charge duration makes it tricky to right-size a station. When a gas station fills up and cars back up 2 or 3 deep, it's not a biggie because it's maybe a 5-10 minute wait. But when that happens at a DCFC station, a 30-60 minute wait is a much bigger deal. But doubling the # of chargers there to avoid that is very costly, and they'll sit empty without revenue the other 95% of the time.

It will help some when the chargers themselves are manufactured at higher volumes and the costs come down, but that doesn't help expensive labor costs for installation and maintenance. It may just come down to significantly higher charging prices, especially when the taxpayer subsidies start drying up.

I think you hit on an important point. Queuing theory can easily model how many chargers are needed for any given arrival rate, charge time, and wait queue. The problem is the stations are really expensive and having enough to have small queues waiting for charge at peak times is economically abysmal because they are empty almost all the time. If things stay this way, ultimately I see three paths.

1) Big government subsidies to make long distance EV road trips work for the masses (kinda like how the interstates are paid for)
2) We stick with gas cars for long road trips and/or tolerate really long queues at out of town chargers on holiday weekends
3) The Tesla model is actually right, where buyers pay a big premium for a dedicated charging network.

I wonder if the golden age of electric car travel is actually now. Just (barely) enough chargers and rarely any wait.

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[kdryden99]

Actually quite a few gas stations here in Quebec have chargers and its great. Our Petro Canadas have 350kw chargers and i use it often.

 

[dbsb3233]

Actually quite a few gas stations here in Quebec have chargers and its great. Our Petro Canadas have 350kw chargers and i use it often.

The right gas stations makes sense. Like travel plazas. But not every corner gas station around the city.

 

[kdryden99]

The right gas stations makes sense. Like travel plazas. But not every corner gas station around the city.

While i understand your point we also have to realize that 1) ppl in apartments and condos dont have access to chargers. 2) there's a real problem with charging etiquette i.e. ev's parking and not chargin and even from ppl driving ice cars parking in ev only parking spots. 3) the price of gas has caused a steep increase in demand of EV's. Its crazy how many i see on the road now and with the charging infrastructure developing at a snails pace, the charging etiquette will just get worse. Anything to give these companies a kick in the ass to get moving is welcomed.

 

[dbsb3233]

While i understand your point we also have to realize that 1) ppl in apartments and condos dont have access to chargers. 2) there's a real problem with charging etiquette i.e. ev's parking and not chargin and even from ppl driving ice cars parking in ev only parking spots. 3) the price of gas has caused a steep increase in demand of EV's. Its crazy how many i see on the road now and with the charging infrastructure developing at a snails pace, the charging etiquette will just get worse. Anything to give these companies a kick in the ass to get moving is welcomed.

Oh there certainly needs to be some city DCFC as well. In appropriate spots. But that's usually not gas stations, and certainly not ALL gas stations. That was my point.

The right solution is getting L2 into apartment and condo complexes where people sleep. It's better for batteries, better for the grid, better for drivers. If government is going to mandate, they should mandate the much better solution.

 

[mkhuffman]

And that is what I think the government ought to subsidize (not trying to get political, just saying I support it). Having a great transit infrastructure is good for everyone.

I don't agree. Subsidies are not free, and make the market less efficient, causing inflation and dislocations. I don't support them at all.

And if you put price controls on DCFC stations, you will make it less likely that new stations will be built and less likely existing stations will be maintained properly, resulting in stations with broken chargers that never get fixed.

And then you will complain that the government subsidized all these DCFC stations that don't work, so they are useless. So then what do you do? Fine the station operators because they are not repairing their own equipment because they can't afford to because they cannot charge enough to make the business viable?

No, subsidies and price controls are very bad policy. Very bad.

 

[jonkMACHE]

It’s about having a great transit infrastructure. Most interstates were built/funded by the government. This led to better trade between states, economic growth, and no one really debates that this was the right thing to do. I do not agree with blanket subsidies for any foolish cause. But certain things are worth the investment. I believe transit is one of them.

 

[mkhuffman]

It’s about having a great transit infrastructure. Most interstates were built/funded by the government. This led to better trade between states, economic growth, and no one really debates that this was the right thing to do. I do not agree with blanket subsidies for any foolish cause. But certain things are worth the investment. I believe transit is one of them.

Everyone has a different definition of what qualifies as a "foolish cause". I think paying companies to build charging stations is a foolish cause.

There are plenty of market dynamics that will solve the charging problem, and paying companies to build DCFC stations is likely not the best course of action in every situation. So the free market should decide, not a politician spending someone else's money.

The best solution is to get rid of the regulations that are driving up electricity costs, and get rid of the regulations that make it difficult to build new charging stations stations - DCFC as well as L2. If the cost of electricity goes down, more stations will become more viable, and EVs will become more viable.

So if you want to support legislation that will actually fix the problem, support elimination of existing regulations and taxes that are diving up the cost of everything. Take the chains off, reduce the cost, and the free market will not only solve the problem, it will be solved much more effectively and efficiently than any central planner could ever have done. And in ways you have not even thought of yet. Entrepreneurs do that, you know.

 

[jonkMACHE]

I will try to make this as non-political as I can, but I do think federal/state subsidies for EV infrastructure is a productive debate here as it'll affect all MachE owners.

I believe if it's left up to the free market, the job simply won't get done. You'll end up with good EV infrastructure in major cities where the population demands it (i.e. NYC, Boston, and DC), but poor to non-existent infrastructure in less developed areas where the average Joe has trouble affording a 60k car. Right now, at this very moment, the infrastructure in the three cities I listed is great (and ironically the local governments all provide subsidies). However, when I took a road trip to Charleston, SC the EV infrastructure was not good. Very large gaps between DCFCs on South Carolina interstates, and practically no public L2 charging in the city of Charleston.

Building public L2 and DCFC chargers would provide quality work contracts for blue collar workers (electricians, construction workers), and encouraging EV ownership in less developed areas creates work opportunities for companies like Ford and GM that still do a lot of their manufacturing here in the US. It also helps bring technology to poorer areas to help improve their lives.

I know people probably look at where I'm from and make political assumptions about why I support EVs (for the record I'm about as "un-woke" as you can get), but I simply think EVs are the future of transportation, are superior to ICE in every way EXCEPT infrastructure, and believe it would be wise for this country to invest in it.

By the way, no issue here at all with slashing regulations (provided it doesn't impact safety) that make it difficult to build EV stations.

 

[yngwenli]

a 30-60 minute wait is a much bigger deal.

I would assume in 5-10 years (and some, even now like Porsche, Hyundai), every EV that's road tripping will be charging from 10->80% in 20 minutes or much less. That will make it much less of an issue.

One reason I stuck with the SR this go around is low plans to charge for now on road trips, but definitely do it on the "next" EV.

 

[yngwenli]

I believe if it's left up to the free market, the job simply won't get done.

I'm in agreement with you. Some things simply cost too much in a free market for any company looking for profits to accomplish. It'll never be done probably and think about everyone having their own standards/billing/payment/that evGo comment above to charge more, etc...what a mess.

I think like healthcare, it's probably more profitable to simply never insure women of childbearing age since that's expensive and maybe not a lot of people pay (no clue). Or simply, no support at all for non-paying emergency room people, etc...not sure that's where we want society to head if we paint a wide brush that everything should just be a free market. TX energy during the deep freeze with free market rates didn't work out too well for some folks with thousands of bills.


Yes, no one needs an EV, but if we're discussing what would help, Electrify America was started from VW's diesel gate right? Maybe with this fed proposal, like highway funding, these charging stations don't have to make a killing since a lot of things aren't there just for profits (national parks?).

 

[RedStallion]

And that is what I think the government ought to subsidize (not trying to get political, just saying I support it). Having a great transit infrastructure is good for everyone.

And where would those subsidies come from? Perhaps income taxes on people, most of whom don't even drive EVs. Or maybe it's going to be an inflation tax, which hurts the poor most?

 

[RedStallion]

It’s about having a great transit infrastructure. Most interstates were built/funded by the government. This led to better trade between states, economic growth, and no one really debates that this was the right thing to do. I do not agree with blanket subsidies for any foolish cause. But certain things are worth the investment. I believe transit is one of them.

The history is replete with failures of the planned economies. When a business invests their money they are taking on risks, in return the market rewards success and punishes failure resulting in the optimal use of resources. When government invests our money, the bureaucrats don't assume the risks, there is no market feedback and the resources are not directed where there is the best return on investment. When a business fails it goes bankrupt. When a government fails it throws more money into the same pit.
It's not the government's task to chose the winners, especially when their track record is littered with losers.

 

[RedStallion]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-charging-stations-every-50-miles/7561566001/

These are rules for obtaining federal subsidies to build new charging stations. Here are some of the big takeaways.

1. Chargers must be at 1 mile, or less, from a highway
2. No closed networks. Tesla would have to create chargers for everyone to qualify.
3. No App requirements allowed. Chargers, built with subsidies, will operate more like a gas pump. You don’t need an app to pay and you don’t need a subscription.
4. At least 4 DC fast chargers per station.
5. Mandates chargers every 50 miles along highway

Government forcing business decisions will lead to stolen money and poor results as usual. Moreover, as studies have shown that when the federal government has historically injected large amounts of money into a state or project, the overall level of private investment into expansion and R&D is dramatically reduced.

 

[mkhuffman]

Right now, at this very moment, the infrastructure in the three cities I listed is great (and ironically the local governments all provide subsidies).

Actually, it is not ironic, it is expected. Subsidies mean less investment is needed by the private sector, so it is cheaper for them to be built where the government is paying for them to be built.

But there are unintended consequences. For example, EA has limited capital to invest in adding new stations. If a local government gives them money to build stations in Denver, the result is more stations there and less stations in Charleston, because it is cheaper to build them in Denver.

You are complaining about the lack of chargers in more rural areas, and the very reason that is happening is due to subsidies. So is your answer is probably more and better subsidies? More spending, more wasting, more dislocation, and more taking money from those who can't afford an EV?

Obviously we are not going to agree on this, but subsidies are immoral and hurt more people than they help. Yes they will encourage behavior you like but with consequences you don't like. The problem is the consequences are often harder to see, and certainly the consequences are not promoted when a politician is proposing spending more on subsidies. To understand the consequences, you have to do more than just look at the direct impact.

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