EELinneman

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SDGE charges over $.049 kWh for residential! Funny, considering most of their electricity is coal-powered with 22% line losses from Texas!

https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/6-1-22 Schedule DR Total Rates Table.pdf

We put solar on our house with a very iffy ROI model, but it minimizes our dependency on Intermountain Flash & Flicker. They pull some tricks in that they refund your surplus at the end of April, so they have the float for the year and then only at thier avoided costs. The usage is 1-1 for the retail rates though. In theory, the MME power is free, but only if you generate enough surplus which we do in mid-spring through the fall.
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EELinneman

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Just looked at EA and only in South CO Springs. If you are staying in downtown or east side that’s way out of the way. Also looks like EA chargers are about 40-50 miles apart as you go north into Denver area but again not always in the best spots we just stayed near Rockies stadium and didn’t see one charger. I know they are around but not like gas stations. Maybe a little better in future since they can be in parking garages unlike gas pumps.
It’s taken 50+ years to get the gas infrastructure in place they should just leverage that with chargers. NM does that along the highway it makes better sense in cities to do the same.
They are still building gas stations everywhere except CA just make them support a couple of DC chargers for each.
Brian,

My office was a block north of Coors Field. The new apartment complex built there had a levle 2 charger open to the world! I don't see it on Plugshare, but it is there!
 

moparguy

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No.

Why not?

Because to get the federal dollars, the government will ensure that Elon can't screw the consumer. Why? Because he has a history of doing wacko things. They will make it ironclad, because of his instability.

Not unstable? Witness Twitter.
I'd be worried more about how the government is wasting the money and screwing us, after all, years I can't believe people would make comments about Must screwing people, dude! he's the only reason Ford got it shit together and build your Mach E, without him being the threat he is to the auto industry, Ford would still be making Fiestas and Focus with bad transmissions.
 

SWO

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The 50 mile thing is guidance and not a rule. But they want to make sure funding doesn't go to 4 different stations right next to each other while leaving huge gaps elsewhere along the interstate.

Tesla SCs aren't cheaper in many cases. That is an assumption that many make but it isn't always true. And if Tesla has to add a credit card reader and CCS ports to their chargers, I imagine that there will be some type of surcharge for non-Tesla users.

Here's the Tesla SV Owners Club complaining about SC prices. When I looked into it last spring, I found that EA was a lot cheaper in California. Here is Colorado, they are about the same price if you use the EA member rate.

Agree, though I think he was talking about the cost of the chargers themselves, which is based on false assumptions from their Texas grant application.
 

Billyk24

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Patrick and Liv,

Interesting document - they mandate data exchanges, CCS, ADA compliance, but still allow for companies to charge differently for brands - such as Tesla surcharging non-Tesla cars. Ford could do the same. It's going to make this interesting to be able to use a 3rd party app to get real-time pricing. I am wondering if we will soon see time of use (TOU) costs like the utilities have implemented?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-charging-stations-every-50-miles/7561566001/

These are rules for obtaining federal subsidies to build new charging stations. Here are some of the big takeaways.

1. Chargers must be at 1 mile, or less, from a highway
2. No closed networks. Tesla would have to create chargers for everyone to qualify.
3. No App requirements allowed. Chargers, built with subsidies, will operate more like a gas pump. You don’t need an app to pay and you don’t need a subscription.
4. At least 4 DC fast chargers per station.
5. Mandates chargers every 50 miles along highway
Impossible to drive across the state of Michigan 4 months a year due to broken, mslfunctioning and lack of ccs dcfc chargers. Mackinac city installed 4 new 62.5kW ccs chargers 4 months ago and all are non functional. I believe these are charge point branded. 140 miles west is the next single only ccs charger at Meijer and it works perfectly at 120kW. 40 miles west is the next ccs charger in Norway that has malfunctioned for 9 months now with no end in sight. This is a charge point brand. No other ccs chargers in the up of Michigan. 50 mile guidance is just that as multiple ev chargers in one spot require electrical infranstructure support and ways to minimize ultra high demad chargers. Thus look for only decent size towns to host multiple ccs chargers
 


SWO

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I'm guessing that Tesla will charge higher rates for non-Tesla. Much higher. This will subsidize the folks who got lifetime free charging a few years ago from Tesla. I have a friend in SoCal who bought two when this was available. Nothing is free, we will end up paying for that.
Tesla is losing money on every vehicle that charges currently, which is why they want to open up their network. CCS will be the eventual standard, so it's smart for them to gain market share in the mean time.
 

Mach-E VLOG

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I
Just looked at EA and only in South CO Springs. If you are staying in downtown or east side that’s way out of the way. Also looks like EA chargers are about 40-50 miles apart as you go north into Denver area but again not always in the best spots we just stayed near Rockies stadium and didn’t see one charger. I know they are around but not like gas stations. Maybe a little better in future since they can be in parking garages unlike gas pumps.
It’s taken 50+ years to get the gas infrastructure in place they should just leverage that with chargers. NM does that along the highway it makes better sense in cities to do the same.
They are still building gas stations everywhere except CA just make them support a couple of DC chargers for each.
I wouldn't just look at EA. That would be like just looking for Shell stations.

Here's the Denver Tesla SC and destination charger map for Denver:
Ford Mustang Mach-E Federal administration proposes new rules for EV charging stations FireShot Capture 087 - PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car_


And here is the Level 2 and CCS station map:
Ford Mustang Mach-E Federal administration proposes new rules for EV charging stations FireShot Capture 086 - PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car_
 

EELinneman

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I

I wouldn't just look at EA. That would be like just looking for Shell stations.

Here's the Denver Tesla SC and destination charger map for Denver:
Ford Mustang Mach-E Federal administration proposes new rules for EV charging stations FireShot Capture 086 - PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car_


And here is the Level 2 and CCS station map:
Ford Mustang Mach-E Federal administration proposes new rules for EV charging stations FireShot Capture 086 - PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car_
Patrick,

There is a supercharger station near Park Meadows across county line. We bought some furniture from Stickley next to the supercharger. I'm guessing at least a dozen Tesla drivers walked the 50 feet to take a look at my MME.
 

Mach-E VLOG

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Patrick,

There is a supercharger station near Park Meadows across county line. We bought some furniture from Stickley next to the supercharger. I'm guessing at least a dozen Tesla drivers walked the 50 feet to take a look at my MME.
A couple of times I've charged at stations that also had adjacent Tesla SCs. The looks I get are quite interesting. 😁
 

RickMachE

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Impossible to drive across the state of Michigan 4 months a year due to broken, mslfunctioning and lack of ccs dcfc chargers. Mackinac city installed 4 new 62.5kW ccs chargers 4 months ago and all are non functional. I believe these are charge point branded. 140 miles west is the next single only ccs charger at Meijer and it works perfectly at 120kW. 40 miles west is the next ccs charger in Norway that has malfunctioned for 9 months now with no end in sight. This is a charge point brand. No other ccs chargers in the up of Michigan. 50 mile guidance is just that as multiple ev chargers in one spot require electrical infranstructure support and ways to minimize ultra high demad chargers. Thus look for only decent size towns to host multiple ccs chargers
Besides that this is the same info posted many months ago (perhaps still accurate), "across the state of Michigan" is east-west, and there are plenty of chargers. Even going north / south is fine, if you don't want to go into the UPPER PENINSULA. West Virginia has no high speed chargers. Other states have 1 or 2 or 3. Take the UP out of the picture, and charging in Michigan isn't a big deal.
 

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One interesting tidbit in the proposal document -- stations must have a Plug and Charge option at stations that receive funding. ChargePoint has been very critical of the current Plug and Charge standard and says they will not implement it due to security concerns. And many have figured that Tesla wants a chunk of this federal funding, but would they be able to add the Plug & Charge option easily for non-Teslas? In countries where they have opened up the SCs, they require customers to activate charging with the Tesla app.
I think that EvGo is using the same “security” excuse for why they won’t implement the Plug and Charge standard. Its an excuse plan and simple. I recall listening to a Feb episode of the Insideevs Pod where they spoke with the EvGo COO. The host asked him why EvGo hasn’t implemented the Plug and Charge standard. At first he mentioned security but later in the pod the topic came up again and he implied that EvGo having it’s own standard will allow for a new revenue stream for the company. It all boils down to money.
 

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The gas station business plan will work for charging station with a few tweaks. Gas stations make little to nothing from the sale of fuel. The majority of there profit comes from their convivence store and other miscellaneous services. Up to this point the majority of charging infrastructure has been autonomous with no services and erratic, disjointed, automated billing systems. Would be nice to see a chain of restaurants/convivence store that offer 8 to 16 pull through charging stations rated >/= 350kw. They could also offer other services like lounges w/High Speed internet. Sort of like the Service plazas you see on some interstates. I think there is a huge business opportunity that the the industry is missing. I suspect EVs haven't reach enough market penetration to garner the type of investment needed to make that happen.
 

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One interesting tidbit in the proposal document -- stations must have a Plug and Charge option at stations that receive funding. ChargePoint has been very critical of the current Plug and Charge standard and says they will not implement it due to security concerns. And many have figured that Tesla wants a chunk of this federal funding, but would they be able to add the Plug & Charge option easily for non-Teslas? In countries where they have opened up the SCs, they require customers to activate charging with the Tesla app.
It also says — “Chargers must display and base the price for electricity to charge in $/kWh.” Unless this is modified, it could be a problem for states basing the price on minutes/kWh.
 

mkhuffman

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From my perspective, we don't need cars with 350 miles of range, we need chargers closer together.
I somewhat agree - we need cars with 500-600 miles of HIGHWAY range. If that happens, almost nobody will need a charger on the way, and it will become a destination charger opportunity.

Destination chargers can be L2 and are much cheaper to build. Hotels and resorts will be motivated to build them and might keep them "free". Or might not.

Maybe Marriott will give Bonoy members free charging like they do with Internet. But I really think the solution will come with longer range cars as battery technology improves.

The fact is we will ever need the quantity of charging stations to equal the number of gas stations, because we can refuel at home.

Back to the OP, I hope the legislation doesn't contain mandates. Subsidies are bad enough, but mandates hinder creativity and entrepreneurs with new and unique ideas.
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