Better peak charging rate or charging curve possible?

[Mathington]

Nobody knows if the 2021 ID.4s can be upgraded to faster charging curves or whether it is only available in 2022+ models. I saw a prototype US-built ID.4 near Tampa back in Nov 2021 that had the upgrade charging curve... It's now July 2022 and VW NOT has provided a single software upgrade to ID.4 owners.

I test drove and declined my 2022 ID.4 AWD order which had the upgrade charging and latest 3.1 software. The software changes seemed so minimal... a slicker UI (but still laggy) with the same problematic haptic controls and ancient travel assist system. I have more faith that Ford will push out OTAs and updates than VW.

There is a YouTube channel called "Battery Life" that has a lot of content on VW vehicles. The host of the channel just had their 2020 ID.3 updated with software 2.4 and a better 12v battery at their dealership in preparation for the 3.0 OTA. After the update, they are noticing a better charging curve and higher charge rates at specific states of charge.

How this applies to ID.4's in North America, I'm not sure. I would hope that the process is the same.

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[Mathington]

If you're only seeing low 100s it could also be the DCFC station. They aren't all the same and the labeling on them is deceptive.

For example a 200kw Shell Recharge station will only deliver 50kw to the MME because of it's low amperage, while a 150kw EA station will normally peak for me at about 150. Granted it's not there for long, but 119 seems low. It also depends on how low the battery is. For example, if you start DCFC at 50% SOC you won't likely get to higher delivery numbers. Temperature also plays a role. So there's a number of variables.

What station are you charging at? Can you provide the location of it?

Here's an example of InsideEVs testing of the MME charge curve pre-charge curve updates (so ignore the 80%+ values):

I'm not sure if this question was directed at me, but I was charging at an Electrify Canada 150kW charging station (800004-01) in Hope, British Columbia. The outside temperature was about 30 Celcius that day and I plugged in around 40%-45% I believe.

I do have the 21P22 updates for the charging curve past 80% and it peaked at 119kW for 3 minutes before dropping down. This was the highest charging rate I have ever seen with my car across all the stations I have tried (Petro-Canada, Electrify Canada, ChargePoint, Flo)

I assumed that since I have a Premium Standard Range model, that my charging rate was limited to 115kW or so, is this correct?

 

[voxel]

There is a YouTube channel called "Battery Life" that has a lot of content on VW vehicles. The host of the channel just had their 2020 ID.3 updated with software 2.4 and a better 12v battery at their dealership in preparation for the 3.0 OTA. After the update, they are noticing a better charging curve and higher charge rates at specific states of charge.

How this applies to ID.4's in North America, I'm not sure. I would hope that the process is the same.

Yeah ID.4 owners are supposed to get a new EFB 12V (I thought li-ion but nope... VW is cheap) and then a 2.3 or 2.4 update that then allows for a 3.x update. This was promised multiple times and delayed again and again for US owners.

I'm so underwhelmed by VW and I don't want anything to do with them. In the 11 months since I've owned my last ID.4 so much has changed, Teslas have built 6 Superchargers around me, EA has built ZERO and still have none planned, Ioniq 5 + EV6 got released, and new EVs have arrived.

Heck, my first Mach-E to the ones I picked up this month have noticeable improvements - better charging curve, better blended braking, better PAAK. Even my first Model Y (fall 2021) to my second (early 2022) had major upgrades... AMD chip, 15V li-ion, double pane windows.

I'm going to accept delivery on my Ariya + Solterra when they arrive to give them a try.

 

[Mathington]

Yeah ID.4 owners are supposed to get a new EFB 12V (I thought li-ion but nope... VW is cheap) and then a 2.3 or 2.4 update that then allows for a 3.x update. This was promised multiple times and delayed again and again for US owners.

I'm so underwhelmed by VW and I don't want anything to do with them. In the 11 months since I've owned my last ID.4 so much has changed, Teslas have built 6 Superchargers around me, EA has built ZERO and still have none planned, Ioniq 5 + EV6 got released, and new EVs have arrived.

Heck, my first Mach-E to the ones I picked up this month have noticeable improvements - better charging curve, better blended braking, better PAAK. Even my first Model Y (fall 2021) to my second (early 2022) had major upgrades... AMD chip, 15V li-ion, double pane windows.

I'm going to accept delivery on my Ariya + Solterra when they arrive to give them a try.

It's a shame that VW is so slow in supporting their vehicles, I really like the design of the ID.4 and thought it would make for a reasonably priced 2nd car.

For all the hate that Ford gets, they are making improvements to older cars via OTA updates and newer cars have the issues addressed directly.

 

[DevSecOps]

I'm not sure if this question was directed at me, but I was charging at an Electrify Canada 150kW charging station (800004-01) in Hope, British Columbia. The outside temperature was about 30 Celcius that day and I plugged in around 40%-45% I believe.

I do have the 21P22 updates for the charging curve past 80% and it peaked at 119kW for 3 minutes before dropping down. This was the highest charging rate I have ever seen with my car across all the stations I have tried (Petro-Canada, Electrify Canada, ChargePoint, Flo)

I assumed that since I have a Premium Standard Range model, that my charging rate was limited to 115kW or so, is this correct?

That station uses ABB units. Personally, I normally get less delivered at the ABB units over the Signet and Efacec units due to less deliverable amperage with ABB units.

 

[Mathington]

That station uses ABB units. Personally, I normally get less delivered at the ABB units over the Signet and Efacec units. Not sure why. We have more Signet and Efacec in California than we do ABB, so I try to avoid ABB if I can.

As for the battery pack size charging differently. I've never seen anything to support that and never inquired about it either. I don't think that's a thing, but someone can enlighten me if it is.

I believe that all the charging units for Electrify Canada are ABB units based on what I have seen. Maybe I will try a 350kW charger next time to see if I see any difference as those would (in theory) support a higher amperage than the regular 150kW units.

 

[voxel]

It's a shame that VW is so slow in supporting their vehicles, I really like the design of the ID.4 and thought it would make for a reasonably priced 2nd car.

The base trims are cheap. The $52K top-trim is overpriced. It's like a premium Corolla - all the lipstick can't hide what is underneath.

For all the hate that Ford gets, they are making improvements to older cars via OTA updates and newer cars have the issues addressed directly.

Ford is one of the few carmakers that even have functioning OTAs (others being Tesla and Polestar).

Hyundai and Kia supposedly have OTAs but it's USB stick for updates so far and infotainment only. Any fix like the parking recall has to be performed by the Hyundai dealer.

 

[Mach-Lee]

My opinion is the charge curve can definitely be improved without hurting anything. Ford is just ultra-conservative with it right now. I don’t think anyone monitoring battery temps while charging has really seen the temp get up much above the 40°C target temp. So it’s not thermal, at least with the cell temps. The fixed HVBJB should handle the full charging amps just fine. It might get a little hot at 500A, but it should be fine sitting at 400A continuous, which would be around 150 kW.

To me, on the extended pack the curve should peak at 175 kW down low and gradually decline to 100 kW at 80%, before dropping down more. Multiply by 3/4 for standard range packs. That should be feasible with the hardware in the car.

 

[AZBill]

If you're only seeing low 100s it could also be the DCFC station. They aren't all the same and the labeling on them is deceptive.

For example a 200kw Shell Recharge station will only deliver 50kw to the MME because of it's low amperage, while a 150kw EA station will normally peak for me at about 150. Granted it's not there for long, but 119 seems low. It also depends on how low the battery is. For example, if you start DCFC at 50% SOC you won't likely get to higher delivery numbers. Temperature also plays a role. So there's a number of variables.

What station are you charging at? Can you provide the location of it?

Here's an example of InsideEVs testing of the MME charge curve pre-charge curve updates (so ignore the 80%+ values):

That curve does not tell the whole story though. I once started a charge at 48% and the rate started at 150kw. I also started a charge once at 64% and it started out at 101kw and remained close to 90kw at 80%.

This is why I think it has a thermal limit, it reduces based on time rather than simply being a function of SoC. They slow it down if the battery heats up too much.

 

[AZBill]

That station uses ABB units. Personally, I normally get less delivered at the ABB units over the Signet and Efacec units. Not sure why.

ABB units are limited to 350A current. The Signet units are 500A. The Mach E will take about 450A at nominal voltage (~360V).

 

[Mathington]

That curve does not tell the whole story though. I once started a charge at 48% and the rate started at 150kw. I also started a charge once at 64% and it started out at 101kw and remained close to 90kw at 80%.

This is why I think it has a thermal limit, it reduces based on time rather than simply being a function of SoC. They slow it down if the battery heats up too much.

I believe this is Ford's strategy for the time being, giving peak charging for a set amount of time regardless of the state of charge when first plugged in.

This can be good when doing short but frequent charging stops but less beneficial for longer charging sessions.

 

[Mathington]

ABB units are limited to 350A current. The Signet units are 500A. The Mach E will take about 450A at nominal voltage (~360V).

if it's limited to 350A then this would explain why I was only seeing 119kW max given the lower pack voltage. I will be going to the same charger this weekend so I will record the details of the charging session using CarScanner.

Are the 350kW ABB units also limited to 350A?

 

[DevSecOps]

That curve does not tell the whole story though. I once started a charge at 48% and the rate started at 150kw. I also started a charge once at 64% and it started out at 101kw and remained close to 90kw at 80%.

This is why I think it has a thermal limit, it reduces based on time rather than simply being a function of SoC. They slow it down if the battery heats up too much.

I agree. My point is simply that 119 as stated by the OP is based on many variables as I said in my post. As you confirmed just with the ABB vs Signet units, there's even variables with the infrastructure.

Thermal does play a role as well. In very hot temperatures I normally get 10-20 less delivered on the high end and 5-10 on the low. The car attempts to maintain the battery at 95F and I would assume when cooling can't keep up it requests less power to compensate.

So, to recap, the point of the thread is about peak delivery and the curve. The image was just proof that peak delivery can easily be over 150 in the right conditions and the curve can sustain higher numbers, again in the right conditions with the right chargers.

 

[Blue highway]

For those of you who care a little about what is possible from the perspective of the car...

The Standard Range and Extended Range Mach Es both cap charging at 1.5C (1.5X capacity of the battery per hour) For comparison, Tesla caps their charging to 3C. (3X the capacity of the battery per hour) The curves fall off "similarly" but start at a much higher level so the average charge rate remains a lot higher for Tesla.

So could the peak rate of charge be raised? Sure. some. Are there consequences to this? ... yes. lots more heat and much shorter battery life.

The overall curve is governed by SW in the car (mostly) and the current limit the chargers are capable of. For an ER car, a 150KW station is current limited to ~1.5C of your pack (150KW is ~1.5x the capacity of your battery). For a SR car, a 150KW station is limited to 2C of your pack. (150KW/75KWH pack capacity=2C)

Could the cars charge faster? Yes if the SW in the car is changed and you charge at 350KW stations... but even if the SW in the car changes, the peak will not be higher if you charge at 150KW stations.

Could Ford allow up to say, 2C or 3C on their packs... sure. Are they going to? I doubt it because there is lots of warranty and reputation risk, but no reward. (reputation risk= set a few cars on fire or develop the reputation of short battery life span)

Could the curve be raised? sure if its cool outside... otherwise the cooling capacity limits this.

So what? don't expect big OTA changes to the charging experience.

 

[Mathington]

I agree. My point is simply that 119 as stated by the OP is based on many variables as I said in my post. As you confirmed just with the ABB vs Signet units, there's even variables with the infrastructure.

Thermal does play a role as well. In very hot temperatures I normally get 10-20 less delivered on the high end and 5-10 on the low. The car attempts to maintain the battery at 95F and I would assume when cooling can't keep up it requests less power to compensate.

So, to recap, the point of the thread is about peak delivery and the curve. The image was just proof that peak delivery can easily be over 150 in the right conditions and the curve can sustain higher numbers, again in the right conditions with the right chargers.

For those of you who care a little about what is possible from the perspective of the car...

The Standard Range and Extended Range Mach Es both cap charging at 1.5C (1.5X capacity of the battery per hour) For comparison, Tesla caps their charging to 3C. (3X the capacity of the battery per hour) The curves fall off "similarly" but start at a much higher level so the average charge rate remains a lot higher for Tesla.

So could the peak rate of charge be raised? Sure. some. Are there consequences to this? ... yes. lots more heat and much shorter battery life.

The overall curve is governed by SW in the car (mostly) and the current limit the chargers are capable of. For an ER car, a 150KW station is current limited to ~1.5C of your pack (150KW is ~1.5x the capacity of your battery). For a SR car, a 150KW station is limited to 2C of your pack. (150KW/75KWH pack capacity=2C)

Could the cars charge faster? Yes if the SW in the car is changed and you charge at 350KW stations... but even if the SW in the car changes, the peak will not be higher if you charge at 150KW stations.

Could Ford allow up to say, 2C or 3C on their packs... sure. Are they going to? I doubt it because there is lots of warranty and reputation risk, but no reward. (reputation risk= set a few cars on fire or develop the reputation of short battery life span)

What is the difference that would cause Ford to specify that the charging speed on the Select model is 115kW but the Premium is 150kW? Different physical hardware or is it also a software limitation?

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