DCFC in America - it’s falling apart

[timbop]

Ideal scenario would be stations with roofs that had solar power and stations had attendants, and maybe some sort of lounge or convenience store type thing.

You couldn't put enough solar panels on the roof to generate all the electricity you needed. I've got 45 350w panels and they generate a max of 104 kwh per day. Now, my roofline is badly oriented, but there's no way panels on the roof could generate nearly enough for cars that can pull 270kw

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[The Electric Duo]

What I find interesting are the people who claim that because they find X out of Y chargers broken, that means the system is "falling apart". Zero examples of analysis, over time, to show that. I gave my interpretation, based on my usage of 1/2 dozen locations in August/September 2021, and then again some of them in March 2022. That is that it's getting BETTER, not worse.

This thread is full of subjective opinions, not facts. I'm sure that EA, and Ford, have facts, and they're pushing as hard as they can to get things better. A guy making a YouTube video for profit is the last place I'm looking for facts.

Any reports from users will be anecdotal. But then we get the reports from EA and others claiming 99% (or close to that) up time. It doesn't match up with what people see when out and about.

I would love to see a "dashboard" from each of the major charging networks showing the status of the network -- stuff like percentage of stalls in use, percentage of stalls broken, etc. They may not want to do that, but it would be nice to see a listing of stations that are completely down with estimates of repair time. It could be a rough estimate like 1 day, 1 week, extended outage, etc.

The Baker, CA, station is one that I've been watching off & on for awhile. It is a major stopping point between Vegas and LA. To EA's credit, they are upgrading that station. But at various times, they've had all 12 stations offline for weeks, then 4 come back online for a day or two, and then offline again. Luckily, there's also an EVgo station in Baker, but it is still concerning.

I also watch the Green River, UT, station. It is critical for traveling on I70 in Utah. If that is down, the nearest charger on I70 is 100 miles away in either direction (or 50 miles out of the way in Moab). Between myself and friends, we have a lot of visits to this charger. The last time we were there, only one stall was working and other friends had to wait last week because 3 stalls were down and one is in use. Of course, I just checked it and it says 4 of 4 available right now.

Anyway... I rambled, but basically I'd like to see more real time data instead of relying on anecdotal info. And I want EA to stop bragging about their dedication to customers and 99% uptime until they show the data to back it up.

 

[DevSecOps]

The world just doesn't work that way. They would have to raise for more than 100% to make up for the loss of the 50% of customers, plus the loss of paying customer that won't pay the higher fees. doubling the rates would probably drive off a larger percentage of paying customers, you would really be looking at 125 or 150% increase in rates. But could they even do that? They are some what price constrained as while there is high barrier to entry in the EV charging market, they do have competitors. EVGo and Chargpoint are expanding and Superchargers are going public. EA would be in a really bad place at that point. Hate to tell you this but not only is the "free" charging not going aways, EA has stated their goal is to obtain more of these, it is the critical piece of the business model and why their competitors have started to pursue these for their expansion.

We aren't talking about buying a Peach over a Banana here. If you have to charge you have to charge. It doesn't matter the price - if you have to charge, you will charge as there are no alternatives. Your logic is the equivalent of saying that people stopped putting gas in their car because it was at $5 a gallon. Gas companies and stations have made record profits.

Tesla stopped offering free charging in 2019. I assume you think Elon made a bad choice? Do those who purchased a Tesla after 2019 not charge? Why are his rates almost double that of EA on a plan? I don't see Telsa with infrastructure issues (unless it's a major holiday). Quoting Elon on Superchargers specifically: " We aim for 30% GM or ~10% profitability, all costs included"

 

[SWO]

I don’t think the sample free charging is a bad thing, people need a little bit to practice charging and get familiar. The unlimited free charging is a big issue though.

I think Ford does it right here. You get enough to pay for some trips but not every day.

 

[daverp]

One thought I have had about the broken charger situation is that in most cases L2 chargers are much more reliable than DCFC. I wonder why EA and EVGO do not place one or two L2 chargers at each site, just as a backup in case all the DCFCs go down.

L1 and L2 is much simpler tech. CCS standard has tons of safe guards built into it so you don't end up with a fireball. The spec can be easily summarized as when there is any doubt, don't charge. When dealing with that amount of current things can go bad really fast, plus the need for extra things like cable cooling, and heat dissipaters.

I would like to see them install L2's but I'm guessing they don't see it as economically viable. It was an interesting through, I did a quick search and I don't see anyone selling 480v 3 phase L2 EVSE equipment. The typical commercial L2 charger is 220v 1 phase. DCFC run off of 480v 3 phase, so they can't simply install a normal L2 charger, they would need either a second electrical service or a step transformer both options would add costs. So at that point I'm sure some executives would be questioning are they better off adding an a few L2 chargers or one additional lower end DCFC.

 

[kennethjk]

when people start their own company or practice they generally charge less to get people in the door since they have no revenue. Their time is very cheap when you don’t have any customers.

after a while they get busy and they raise fees or rates, spend more of their time on those people that generate more revenue to them. Their time has become much more expensive

not much different from what car companies are doing. Once enough critical mass is generated these free giveaways will stop.

 

[Logal727]

You couldn't put enough solar panels on the roof to generate all the electricity you needed. I've got 45 350w panels and they generate a max of 104 kwh per day. Now, my roofline is badly oriented, but there's no way panels on the roof could generate nearly enough for cars that can pull 270kw

Not sure where I said it should power the DCFC, but there should be solar to power lights and anything else that would be beneficial like battery backups

 

[SWO]

The problem is thinking of them as handouts and thinking your preferred charger would have existed without this "free" charging. From a business perspective, EA Q1 2023 earnings call, contracted revenue is 50% of their income, that's the "free" charging, because the manufactures are paying a lot for this. It's not free, it's a value add to the car the manufacture is selling. it's the single biggest asset they have funding their network. Also being contracted it's great for securing the financing they use to build the network. When you ask to end the handout of free charging you're asking to cut the companies revenue by 1/2 which translates it to massive investment cuts, that would basicley end all new chargers on the EA network. They would have to massively cut the existing network or pray that all these "free" people start paying more than what the manufactures were or they would quickly become insolvent.

There is always a flip side to a coin and it's often not better.

We do 95%+ of our charging at home. Not everyone can do that. You say it's a college town and that often means a high number of rental properties, condos, and apartments.

Do the manufacturers pay per Kwh, or is it a flat fee?

 

[daverp]

Do the manufacturers pay per Kwh, or is it a flat fee?

They haven't disclosed that. They are a private company, owned by VW, so they don't reveal a ton of details, best info is from the earnings reports they have provide to the state of California. So it's about 50% of their revenue, if that's fixed fee, per kWh or something else is unknown. I would guess each deal is slightly different. I'm sure VW managed to independently negotiate a pretty good deal with themselves for the 3 years of charging. Hyundai, Genesis, and Kia despite being the same have different deals, Hyundai is 2 years, Genesis is 3 years, and Kia is 1000 kWh so I would make the educated guess that the underlying contracts are different. Ford is only 250 kWh.

 

[SWO]

They haven't disclosed that. They are a private company, owned by VW, so they don't reveal a ton of details, best info is from the earnings reports they have provide to the state of California. So it's about 50% of their revenue, if that's fixed fee, per kWh or something else is unknown. I would guess each deal is slightly different. I'm sure VW managed to independently negotiate a pretty good deal with themselves for the 3 years of charging. Hyundai, Genesis, and Kia despite being the same have different deals, Hyundai is 2 years, Genesis is 3 years, and Kia is 1000 kWh so I would make the educated guess that the underlying contracts are different. Ford is only 250 kWh.

I would bet it's a flat rate and thus, EA benefits by chargers being broken.

 

[kindofblue]

All this kerfuffle about non-Tesla chargers reinforces my decision to keep our MY when we get the Mach e as opposed to subsequently getting another EV to replace the Tesla. At least until Tesla's supercharger network is widely available to non-Tesla EVs.

 

[daverp]

I would bet it's a flat rate and thus, EA benefits by chargers being broken.

Doubtful, conspiracy theories are fun, but the last thing VW wants is another fraud scandal. Delayed repairs because of staffing levels, parts issues, or many other impacts is one thing, purposely not repairing chargers for financial benefit would put them in legal jeopardy. Beyond that don't bite the hand that feeds you applies, they are not stupid, if your business model relies on these contracts you're not going to scam them, as soon as that comes out they would be in big financial trouble.

Also not to mention any lost revenue from those chargers being down from the paying customers also.

 

[RickMachE]

One thought I have had about the broken charger situation is that in most cases L2 chargers are much more reliable than DCFC. I wonder why EA and EVGO do not place one or two L2 chargers at each site, just as a backup in case all the DCFCs go down.

I had a situation once several years ago in my Bolt, where the only DCFC (EV Connect in this case) was broken, but they had a couple of L2 chargers at the same location (hotel). I ended up charging for 2 hours in order to get to the next DCFC, but at least I did not have to get towed. Was it annoying, yes, but at least I was able to complete the trip.

Because a level 2 charger, on a trip, is an absolute waste (except overnight). I can say with great certainty that at every place you stop, you can probably find a level 2 charger within 10 miles, and if you ask nicely they'll let you charge if you can't make it to the next DC charger.

 

[SWO]

Doubtful, conspiracy theories are fun, but the last thing VW wants is another fraud scandal. Delayed repairs because of staffing levels, parts issues, or many other impacts is one thing, purposely not repairing chargers for financial benefit would put them in legal jeopardy. Beyond that don't bite the hand that feeds you applies, they are not stupid, if your business model relies on these contracts you're not going to scam them, as soon as that comes out they would be in big financial trouble.

You can say all that, but the reaction from EA management at the end of the day will be different when chargers being inoperative affects quarterly revenue. It would be almost impossible to prove intent, but they might be trying a little harder to find those parts if it was costing them money. It's basic economics.

I would be shocked if manufacturers agreed to open-ended obligations.

 

[timbop]

When I'm 300 miles from home and I need to charge my only option is DCFC. When you are using a DCFC station around the corner from your house (where you should be charging) because it's free, hogging it for those who NEED it, then yes I have a problem with that. It doesn't surprise me that common sense and courtesy escape you of all people.

If you want EV adoption you need to get the people who commute and travel. EVs have been well adopted for years among people who are city dwellers and put-put around town.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you are still able to get a charge, right? It's just less convenient for you because you have to wait. Have you polled other drivers when you get to a full station to see if in fact they are travelling like yourself vs just charging locally because it's free? Did you check to see if like you they have no other option, so that's why they bought a car with "free" DCFC? Or are you merely "bitching about those freeloaders"?

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