Is Ford now doing HVBJB replacement for cars that have not failed?

[kennethjk]

If the new part was the fix you claim why not just state that in the recall notice? Why only reference the software in the recall notice regarding production builds? If the part fails, of course they have to replace it so the fact that many cars have had this part replaced doesn't tell you a ton of things. Why only reference the components that install the software in the recall notice? Ford has provided plenty data so far. 200 cars not patched, 286 for over a year and a half of 50k cars is not a substantial problem before the recall was even provided. The assumption, even by people on this forum is that the software will detect prior damaged contactors and there will be an increase in repairs before that number goes down. This would again imply the software is doing its job. You also failed to recall this is not the first time the part number has changed. Did they try to fix this multiple times before but failed or something? What I believe is if Ford lies to its customers and to regulatory oversight they will be in so much worse position finacially that it simply doesn't make sense to even risk it. I work in a heavily regulated industry in finance on the tech side and regulatory issues are at the forefront of everything we do. To ignore them or to worse lie to them can spell the end of a company. There are zero reasons for Ford to lie here and only an idiot in Ford's corp structure would believe the truth wouldn't eventually come out. Emails are recorded and retained for a reason.

This is from the report. If you can provide better information than this or actual difference between the new vs old part then please do so.

"Between July 13, 2021 and May 31, 2022, there have been 286 warranty claims in North America related to an open or welded contactor."

"is not robust to the heat generated during DC fast charging and multiple wide open pedal events."

Because of all the reasons you have mentioned above no entity has ever been penalized for doing things illegal or against a law, why because it’s wrong ?

Yep, no financial company has ever been penalized for doing anything wrong, laughable

There are penalties assessed against entities all the time and guess what, part of the settlement is that they don’t admit any guilt, so of course they are blameless and no one is to blame

I think we are both wasting our time on this

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[mwtechy]

Because of all the reasons you have mentioned above no entity has ever been penalized for doing things illegal or against a law, why because it’s wrong ?

Yep, no financial company has ever been penalized for doing anything wrong, laughable

There are penalties assessed against entities all the time and guess what, part of the settlement is that they don’t admit any guilt, so of course they are blameless and no one is to blame

I think we are both wasting our time on this

New cars are shipped with the new "beefier" part. Cars repaired have the new "beefier" part. Plenty of dealers would be probably willing to "lose" a "beefier" part. You have access to everything you need to prove your statements...but no one has...so. Until that happens there is no "beefier" part, it's just a bunch of people online speculating.

 

[dtbaker61]

New cars are shipped with the new "beefier" part. Cars repaired have the new "beefier" part. Plenty of dealers would be probably willing to "lose" a "beefier" part. You have access to everything you need to prove your statements...but no one has...so. Until that happens there is no "beefier" part, it's just a bunch of people online speculating.

The fact that the new part numbers are beefier has been shown many times in other threads buy a couple members who were actually able to get into the shop when they were doing replacements and verify that the contactors themselves are significantly beefier. Do your homework. Why would we have to prove anything to you which is already been confirmed by the existence of a recall from ford?

The software recall is not a fix, it is just an alert. The fix is the replacement part after the error codes are verified. Well known well documented why are you wasting our time?

What's your point?

Are you saying that you think Ford should continue disallowing dealerships to do the replacement before actual failure?

What I think most of us are saying is that that is not okay, and people that want to eliminate the worry and risk of unexpected failure should be able to get this recall work done before it actually fails since it is well known, well documented and a replacement part exists which can actually fix it

 

[mwtechy]

The fact that the new part numbers are beefier has been shown many times in other threads buy a couple members who were actually able to get into the shop when they were doing replacements and verify that the contactors themselves are significantly beefier. Do your homework.

Where how? Who? Show me. I haven't seen it. This information should be pinned clearly somewhere. All I've seen are a bunch of people saying the part number changed...well great that doesn't mean anything.

 

[RickMachE]

Wow, this thread... I had to waste my time and use the IGNORE function several times...

 

[mwtechy]

This is the closest I've seen anyone come to showing any difference between the two parts. It says they are more or less the same. Show something that's clearer and actually shows the difference I haven't seen it. https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...-fear-facts-and-info-thread.18143/post-463875

 

[AKgrampy]

Where how? Who? Show me. I haven't seen it. This information should be pinned clearly somewhere. All I've seen are a bunch of people saying the part number changed...well great that doesn't mean anything.

Sometimes you can just look at what is happening to realize something is probably accurate:

Cars built before May 25 continue to fail even with software.
Cars built after May 25 have had zero failures over time.
There was a tolerance issue on the old parts and they may or may not fail.
The safety issue was that the HVBJB could fail and the car break down. The recall software is just to prevent the unsafe breakdown condition - car can continue to be driven with reduced power. When an issue is detected an error is thrown and you take the car to be serviced.

If there was no change to the parts then the new parts would be failing just as often as the old ones. Just my thoughts.

 

[mwtechy]

Sometimes you can just look at what is happening to realize something is probably accurate:

Cars built before May 25 continue to fail even with software.
Cars built after May 25 have had zero failures over time.
There was a tolerance issue on the old parts and they may or may not fail.
The safety issue was that the HVBJB could fail and the car break down. The recall software is just to prevent the unsafe breakdown condition - car can continue to be driven with reduced power. When an issue is detected an error is thrown and you take the car to be serviced.

If there was no change to the parts then the new parts would be failing just as often as the old ones. Just my thoughts.

Here are the two parts https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-2406901-4.html and https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1-2342963-4.html

I mean it's simple to ask so I'll ask the company that made them. if anyone anywhere actually knows what the differences are please state it. I mean we got people selling their cars over this nonsense and telling dealers to replace parts that most likely have nothing wrong with them. Cars after May 25th have had the protective software installed before they were ever used. That's the only difference Ford claims.

Edit: Their online contact form only accepts known business contacts. I'll try and call them on Tuesday but I doubt I'll get any info from them. If someone else has managed to reach them without signing some NDA in the process before getting product information then please spill the beans here.

 

[AKgrampy]

Here are the two parts https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-2406901-4.html and https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1-2342963-4.html

I mean it's simple to ask so I'll ask the company that made them. if anyone anywhere actually knows what the differences are please state it. I mean we got people selling their cars over this nonsense and telling dealers to replace parts that most likely have nothing wrong with them. Cars after May 25th have had the protective software installed before they were ever used. That's the only difference Ford claims.

Why would there be zero failures after after May 25 with the recall software in the cars while cars built before May 25 with the recall software continue to fail if there is not a difference in some of the components in the HVBJB? You are right though that I have not seen definitive proof but then again I believe the earth is round and astronauts have walked on the moon.

 

[mwtechy]

Why would there be zero failures after after May 25 with the recall software in the cars while cars built before May 25 with the recall software continue to fail if there is not a difference in some of the components in the HVBJB? You are right though that I have not seen definitive proof but then again I believe the earth is round and astronauts have walked on the moon.

So now you're comparing me to flat Earthers? For sanity's sake here NASA has more information that I do on the subject of moon landings but I don't doubt them. The doubters of Ford's and regulatory statements would be flatearthers.

As has been said several times before, contactors before May 25th were not protected by the software so they may have prior damage that could get worse over time which eventually the software will detect. Once welding starts from arcs it can cause additional arcs that are not as easily blown out by the electromagnetics in the contactor. That would speculation on my part though if I said that without a doubt. I mean it's a simple question with a simple answer. What are the differences between these two parts. https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-2406901-4.html and https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1-2342963-4.html <- until someone answers this simple question everything that's being said here is speculation.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

So now you're comparing me to flat Earthers? For sanity's sake here NASA has more information that I do on the subject of moon landings but I don't doubt them. The doubters of Ford's and regulatory statements would be flatearthers.

As has been said several times before, contactors before May 25th were not protected by the software so they may have prior damage that could get worse over time which eventually the software will detect. Once welding starts from arcs it can cause additional arcs that are not as easily blown out by the electromagnetics in the contactor. That would speculation on my part though if I said that without a doubt. I mean it's a simple question with a simple answer. What are the differences between these two parts. https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-2406901-4.html and https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1-2342963-4.html <- until someone answers this simple question everything that's being said here is speculation.

Ok, let's assume that there are no differences in the parts.
You admit that the cars built before May 25th could have sustained damage and can worsen over time despite the software recall. So how do predict which car will eventually fail? You can't. The software will detect the failure, but then it's too late. So the only solution to ensure that no failure will occur in cars built before may 25th is to replace their HVBJB with a fresh one (even if it's not an upgraded part.)

So in conclusion, I want a new fresh HVBJBto to ensure that my HVBJB won't fail.

 

[mwtechy]

Ok, let's assume that there are no differences in the parts.
You admit that the cars built before May 25th could have sustained damage and can worsen over time despite the software recall. So how do predict which car will eventually fail? You can't. The software will detect the failure, but then it's too late. So the only solution to ensure that no failure will occur in cars built before may 25th is to replace their HVBJB with a fresh one (even if it's not an upgraded part.)

So in conclusion, I want a new fresh HVBJBto to ensure that my HVBJB won't fail.

I'm not sure why we should assume anything at all. Their description of the problem specifically cites the SOBDMC, BECM and software. If they were "taking out of production" a HVBJB don't you think this is exactly where they would be mentioning that?

"Descriptive Information : The recalled Secondary On-Board Diagnostic Control Module (SOBDMC) and the Battery Energy Control Module (BECM) software were introduced into production on 05/27/2020 and was taken out of production on 05/24/2022."

They state can cause not will cause.

"Direct Current (“DC”) fast charging and repeated wide open pedal events can cause the high voltage battery main contactors to overheat."

"The design and part-to-part variation of the high voltage battery main contactor is not robust to the heat generated during DC fast charging and multiple wide open pedal events."

The design here could imply anything with the car including providing maximum power output during WOT regardless of prior WOT and DCFC events...but if we were to read just what they stated there are only certain scenarios and certain prior defective parts at issue here not all prior parts. The recall of course impacts all 100% because all cars had the prior software installed which permitted the scenarios described in the recall to damage the defective parts.

I'll try and reach that company later this week or possibly into the new year since holiday means they will be hard to get a hold of but I fully expect to run into an NDA to sign that I will not sign. A reasonable solution here is for someone to hire a 3rd party to test both parts to answer this question once and for all. I would prefer Ford pay for their mistakes but until someone has proven they made one it's kind of a circular conversation. I'm sorry you feel ripped off by Ford but 50k cars is no small mater and quite honestly a few a week is not nearly enough for this to be a 50k car problem.

 

[kennethjk]

I'm not sure why we should assume anything at all. Their description of the problem specifically cites the SOBDMC, BECM and software. If they were "taking out of production" a HVBJB don't you think this is exactly where they would be mentioning that?

"Descriptive Information : The recalled Secondary On-Board Diagnostic Control Module (SOBDMC) and the Battery Energy Control Module (BECM) software were introduced into production on 05/27/2020 and was taken out of production on 05/24/2022."

They state can cause not will cause.

"Direct Current (“DC”) fast charging and repeated wide open pedal events can cause the high voltage battery main contactors to overheat."

"The design and part-to-part variation of the high voltage battery main contactor is not robust to the heat generated during DC fast charging and multiple wide open pedal events."

The design here could imply anything with the car including providing maximum power output during WOT regardless of prior WOT and DCFC events...but if we were to read just what they stated there are only certain scenarios and certain prior defective parts at issue here not all prior parts. The recall of course impacts all 100% because all cars had the prior software installed which permitted the scenarios described in the recall to damage the defective parts.

I'll try and reach that company later this week or possibly into the new year since holiday means they will be hard to get a hold of but I fully expect to run into an NDA to sign that I will not sign. A reasonable solution here is for someone to hire a 3rd party to test both parts to answer this question once and for all. I would prefer Ford pay for their mistakes but until someone has proven they made one it's kind of a circular conversation. I'm sorry you feel ripped off by Ford but 50k cars is no small mater and quite honestly a few a week is not nearly enough for this to be a 50k car problem.

I thought I wouldn’t answer anymore but couldn’t help myself

unless you have contacts do you really think you can reach out to their in the know engineers and they will tell you exactly what’s going on without checking legal?

you are saying is that the replacement part is the same as the original part.

if so Ford is worse than I thoght.

 

[dtbaker61]

Wow, this thread... I had to waste my time and use the IGNORE function several times...

I thought I wouldn’t answer anymore but couldn’t help myself

unless you have contacts do you really think you can reach out to their in the know engineers and they will tell you exactly what’s going on without checking legal?

you are saying is that the replacement part is the same as the original part.

if so Ford is worse than I thoght.

Ken, any sane person has come to the conclusion that the 'new' HVBJB is different that the original, and does fix the problem once installed.

the OP question was 'is Ford installing the new HVBJB before failure?'. The answer is "no"

my suggestion is that we consider this thread closed, and 'ignore' anyone who doesn't seem to understand that.

 

[mwtechy]

I thought I wouldn’t answer anymore but couldn’t help myself

unless you have contacts do you really think you can reach out to their in the know engineers and they will tell you exactly what’s going on without checking legal?

you are saying is that the replacement part is the same as the original part.

if so Ford is worse than I thoght.

You don't bother engineers with basic info required to sell parts, that's expensive. The part datasheet might not need an NDA at all I don't know I haven't reached them yet. Basic information like max amp though should be available. Info on why the parts are different might not be...and that's my entire point. If you don't have actual proof, then making a claim is just a guess. If no one here has those differences and no one can get it then throw some money at someone to test it and get the info you need.

Part numbers can change for of course any reason. Assuming the reason is to increase max amps or improve heat dissipation would be just that, an assumption. I'm not saying different part numbers are the same thing. I'm saying that just because one part superseded another it does not mean it somehow corrects the problem described in the recall. The 666 part was superseded several times before the recall I'm unsure if someone even checked the contactor part #s in each of those.

Ford has zero reason to replace a properly designed part if the design of the software now prevents scenarios from occurring that could damage an already defective part due to QA issues. I mean literally everything I just said is based on what their official statements are. So in my head to claim otherwise requires evidence. I haven't seen any yet...but once you get it well shit hits the fan for Ford and you get possibly a large payout so hey there be gold in them hills...none of which I want any part of...but a phone call I can do...not that it's likely to do any good though.

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