For EVs to become “No-Brainers” over ICE.

[SpaceEVDriver]

That said, 1C isn't magical. It's just what has become standardized as a good compromise between battery long-term health and consumer desires for fast charging. And it's remarkably consistent for both lithium and for lead-acid batteries. (Note that 1C doesn't take into account the concern for charging at the top end of the battery and the slowdown that nearly every manufacturer implements.)

Going up to 2C probably won't severely compromise battery health, if the internal temperatures can be managed properly, and I think all of the existing manufacturers do manage internal temperatures pretty well up to about 2C.

Going beyond 2C is probably not a good idea.

Other chemistries and technologies might find a different compromise. I believe scientists researching some solid state chemistries are looking at much higher rates as a reasonable compromise.

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[mkhuffman]

That said, 1C isn't magical. It's just what has become standardized as a good compromise between battery long-term health and consumer desires for fast charging. And it's remarkably consistent for both lithium and for lead-acid batteries. (Note that 1C doesn't take into account the concern for charging at the top end of the battery and the slowdown that nearly every manufacturer implements.)

Going up to 2C probably won't severely compromise battery health, if the internal temperatures can be managed properly, and I think all of the existing manufacturers do manage internal temperatures pretty well up to about 2C.

Going beyond 2C is probably not a good idea.

Other chemistries and technologies might find a different compromise. I believe scientists researching some solid state chemistries are looking at much higher rates as a reasonable compromise.

I just saw this article and it is very relevant:
Nyobolt Says It Charge EV Battery from Zero to 100% in 6 Minutes (autoweek.com)

So they are charging a 35 kWh battery 0-100% in 6 minutes. That's a 350 kW charger, I believe.

Who can really live with a 35 kWh battery? I think tiny two seater sport cars are cool, but they are certainly not practical. To move the size of car I really want, the battery needs to be much bigger than the MME battery. Lucid can get 500 miles out of 135 kWh, but that is a car. Even so, it will take a lot longer to charge a 135 kWh batter 0-100% even using the technology Nyobolt claims it has tested.

By the way, they claim "only" a 15% loss of charge after 2500 charges. Only. That's 85% SoH. Now their little car car only go 132 miles on a full charge. That's horrible.

It will be much easier to put bigger batteries in cars than to build out 350 kW chargers on every corner.

 

[AKgrampy]

I don't think there have been any real grid issues yet. Sure, if everyone today had an EV, the current grid can't handle it, but it is being improved.

There is actually a huge grid issue that I have seen almost nobody talk about and I really didn’t consider it until I read an article. It has nothing to do with capacity. It has to do with the aging distribution transformers all over the country. They are run fairly overloaded which is OK, But current methodology is they are unloaded at night and cool down. With charging at home they will be loaded 24/7 and their life cycle will reduce from 30 years to single digits. There will have to be a wholesale replacement of distribution transformers through the country.

 

[AZBill]

A 1C charge rate means it takes one hour to go from 0% to 100%.

Assume you have a 200 kWh battery.

Its 1C charge rate is 200 kW. It will take 1 hour of 200 kW power to pull 200 kWh of energy from the DCFC.

If you split that 200 kWh battery into two smaller batteries of 100 kWh each, then each part has a 1C charge rate of 100 kW. Each part will take 1 hour at 100 kW of power to pull 100 kWh of energy.

The DCFC will see the 200 kW power draw because you're essentially charging two batteries.
But it still takes an hour at the 1C charge rate.

And the GM approach is to make it easier on the charger, not the battery. It reduces the current needed out of the charger. Hummer has been clocked at 360kw, while drawing 500A. If the pack were at half the voltage, it would need 1000A. Each cell in the pack gets the same power either way.

 

[mkhuffman]

There is actually a huge grid issue that I have seen almost nobody talk about and I really didn’t consider it until I read an article. It has nothing to do with capacity. It has to do with the aging distribution transformers all over the country. They are run fairly overloaded which is OK, But current methodology is they are unloaded at night and cool down. With charging at home they will be loaded 24/7 and their life cycle will reduce from 30 years to single digits. There will have to be a wholesale replacement of distribution transformers through the country.

Is there anything happening that is actually reducing the cost of electricity? Every policy our wonderful politicians promote is driving electricity costs up, making the value case for EVs even more challenging.

If we could have one thing that drives mass adoption of BEVs it would be dirt cheap electricity.

 

[Mach1E]

I just saw this article and it is very relevant:
Nyobolt Says It Charge EV Battery from Zero to 100% in 6 Minutes (autoweek.com)

So they are charging a 35 kWh battery 0-100% in 6 minutes. That's a 350 kW charger, I believe.

Who can really live with a 35 kWh battery? I think tiny two seater sport cars are cool, but they are certainly not practical. To move the size of car I really want, the battery needs to be much bigger than the MME battery. Lucid can get 500 miles out of 135 kWh, but that is a car. Even so, it will take a lot longer to charge a 135 kWh batter 0-100% even using the technology Nyobolt claims it has tested.

By the way, they claim "only" a 15% loss of charge after 2500 charges. Only. That's 85% SoH. Now their little car car only go 132 miles on a full charge. That's horrible.

It will be much easier to put bigger batteries in cars than to build out 350 kW chargers on every corner.

Maybe the best question in the article-

“But if Nyobolt is such great stuff, why hasn’t anyone else thought this up in the 232 years since Allesandro Volta made his battery in 1791?”

I would love to see a 3rd party test and verification.

If true, 2500 charges would be like 400,000 miles. So 15% loss at that point would be tiny.

However, I’m skeptical. Many times these companies quote theoretical targets or only use small scale prototypes rather than full size.

 

[mdolan92869]

Maybe the best question in the article-

“But if Nyobolt is such great stuff, why hasn’t anyone else thought this up in the 232 years since Allesandro Volta made his battery in 1791?”

I would love to see a 3rd party test and verification.

If true, 2500 charges would be like 400,000 miles. So 15% loss at that point would be tiny.

However, I’m skeptical. Many times these companies quote theoretical targets or only use small scale prototypes rather than full size.

They checked their work by asking ChatGPT if it was right and it said, “Sure, why not”

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I just saw this article and it is very relevant:
Nyobolt Says It Charge EV Battery from Zero to 100% in 6 Minutes (autoweek.com)

So they are charging a 35 kWh battery 0-100% in 6 minutes. That's a 350 kW charger, I believe.

Who can really live with a 35 kWh battery? I think tiny two seater sport cars are cool, but they are certainly not practical. To move the size of car I really want, the battery needs to be much bigger than the MME battery. Lucid can get 500 miles out of 135 kWh, but that is a car. Even so, it will take a lot longer to charge a 135 kWh batter 0-100% even using the technology Nyobolt claims it has tested.

By the way, they claim "only" a 15% loss of charge after 2500 charges. Only. That's 85% SoH. Now their little car car only go 132 miles on a full charge. That's horrible.

It will be much easier to put bigger batteries in cars than to build out 350 kW chargers on every corner.

A few things:

An known company, probably looking for investors, making ridiculous claims isn't a company I would believe. I certainly wouldn't buy a vehicle with a 10C charge rate, at least not if it had anything like today's chemistries, unless it had a hot-swappable battery that I could change out every year or so.

A bigger battery can accept a higher current (200 kWh can accept 200 kW as its 1C power draw), until things start to heat up too much at the charger and vehicle electronics. There's a sweet spot in battery size that balances charge rate, weight, size, thermal control, cost, etc. I don't know what it is. I'm guessing it's around 100-200 kWh.

As noted, as one gets to 200 kWh and higher, any attempt to charge at above 1C means the chargers need more active thermal management from the vehicle side so nothing overheats.

2500 charges, assuming you charge from 0% to 100% every day, is 6.9 years before the battery gets down to 85% of original capacity. Given that most of us are probably not charging from 0% to 100% every day, I think losing only 15% in 2500 charges isn't a bad loss rate. However, I still don't believe any of the claims I read in that article.

I'm good with a ~100 kWh battery for my car. I think I want a bit bigger one for a truck if/when I decide to buy a truck. I don't want a 200 kWh battery; most of the time I'd be lugging too much dead weight. In fact, what I would find super compelling is if there were an aftermarket modification to the F-150 Lightning that allowed me to drop a second battery in the bed, plug it in, use it, and then remove it when I wasn't using it. If that were possible, I'd be happy with a smaller (100 kWh or smaller) "permanent" battery.

 

[mkhuffman]

A few things:

An known company, probably looking for investors, making ridiculous claims isn't a company I would believe. I certainly wouldn't buy a vehicle with a 10C charge rate, at least not if it had anything like today's chemistries, unless it had a hot-swappable battery that I could change out every year or so.

A bigger battery can accept a higher current (200 kWh can accept 200 kW as its 1C power draw), until things start to heat up too much at the charger and vehicle electronics. There's a sweet spot in battery size that balances charge rate, weight, size, thermal control, cost, etc. I don't know what it is. I'm guessing it's around 100-200 kWh.

As noted, as one gets to 200 kWh and higher, any attempt to charge at above 1C means the chargers need more active thermal management from the vehicle side so nothing overheats.

2500 charges, assuming you charge from 0% to 100% every day, is 6.9 years before the battery gets down to 85% of original capacity. Given that most of us are probably not charging from 0% to 100% every day, I think losing only 15% in 2500 charges isn't a bad loss rate. However, I still don't believe any of the claims I read in that article.

I'm good with a ~100 kWh battery for my car. I think I want a bit bigger one for a truck if/when I decide to buy a truck. I don't want a 200 kWh battery; most of the time I'd be lugging too much dead weight. In fact, what I would find super compelling is if there were an aftermarket modification to the F-150 Lightning that allowed me to drop a second battery in the bed, plug it in, use it, and then remove it when I wasn't using it. If that were possible, I'd be happy with a smaller (100 kWh or smaller) "permanent" battery.

A 200 kWh battery at an efficiency of 2.4 mi/kWh is 480 miles. I agree that won't fit in my MME, but one day I think it will. 480 miles with the cruise at 80. That would be awesome. You might not want it, but I definitely do.

 

[ARK]

There is actually a huge grid issue that I have seen almost nobody talk about and I really didn’t consider it until I read an article. It has nothing to do with capacity. It has to do with the aging distribution transformers all over the country. They are run fairly overloaded which is OK, But current methodology is they are unloaded at night and cool down. With charging at home they will be loaded 24/7 and their life cycle will reduce from 30 years to single digits. There will have to be a wholesale replacement of distribution transformers through the country.

From all the issues with EV adoption, I think this one is the least problematic. Power companies are going to have huge financial incentive to be able to provide for the massive growth in electricity usage that’s coming.

Power companies don’t face a technological problem in getting it done, they face an investment problem, and since they are likely to rake in huge profits if the EV transition is successful, they will invest as needed to make it work.

It’s like how some people were saying in 2000 we would run out of oil in 20 years and there would be chaos. But there was profit at stake, and so where there was a will, there was a way, and oil companies keep pumping more and more oil. The upgrades needed to the power grid will be no different.

All these utilities are not going to be indifferent to the once in an eternity chance to massively grow their market.

 

[AKgrampy]

Is there anything happening that is actually reducing the cost of electricity? Every policy our wonderful politicians promote is driving electricity costs up, making the value case for EVs even more challenging.

If we could have one thing that drives mass adoption of BEVs it would be dirt cheap electricity.

Unfortunately I can not think of any. If I lived in the lower 48 I would certainly install solar. I also wish there would be another push for nuclear power. I believe a wind, solar, nuclear mix with NG peaking is the best for the near future (plus conservation.) The challenge with most if not all renewable energy is it it not base load so some form of energy storage is also required which raises the cost.

 

[AKgrampy]

From all the issues with EV adoption, I think this one is the least problematic. Power companies are going to have huge financial incentive to be able to provide for the massive growth in electricity usage that’s coming.

Power companies don’t face a technological problem in getting it done, they face an investment problem, and since they are likely to rake in huge profits if the EV transition is successful, they will invest as needed to make it work.

It’s like how some people were saying in 2000 we would run out of oil in 20 years and there would be chaos. But there was profit at stake, and so where there was a will, there was a way, and oil companies keep pumping more and more oil. The upgrades needed to the power grid will be no different.

All these utilities are not going to be indifferent to the once in an eternity chance to massively grow their market.

Most utilities do not make massive profits. They are regulated and make a “set” profit. The problem is not tech, it is availability. There is a long lead time as it is now for transformers. The lead time will only get worse. Totally solvable over time but it will become an issue especially in poorer rural communities.

 

[ARK]

Most utilities do not make massive profits. They are regulated and make a “set” profit. The problem is not tech, it is availability. There is a long lead time as it is now for transformers. The lead time will only get worse. Totally solvable over time but it will become an issue especially in poorer rural communities.

Sure, but a growing market is not a 'bad' thing for the utilities. It's not like car companies who might be agnostic to EV or ICE and just really care about whichever type of car will get them more profit. I don't think any utility is going to see more demand for their product as a 'bad' thing. That is about as good of a problem as any company can have - so much demand for your product, you have trouble keeping up with all your customers.

Those transformers might be backordered now, but they aren't needed by tomorrow, or next week, or next year, and rightly or wrongly, there is a big political push behind all this EV stuff. Push comes to shove, I have no doubt the pols will do what it takes to make sure all the necessary transformers and all the rest of the equipment starts arriving as needed in 2026, 2029, 2033, 2038, etc.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

A 200 kWh battery at an efficiency of 2.4 mi/kWh is 480 miles. I agree that won't fit in my MME, but one day I think it will. 480 miles with the cruise at 80. That would be awesome. You might not want it, but I definitely do.

It's a certainty that if a Tacoma-sized pickup with a 200 kWh battery were released at a reasonable price, I'd have a hard time turning it down.

But I wouldn't even look at a Hummer or similar-sized vehicle.

 

[woody]

Haven’t seen an all electric commercial lawn service……ever.

It is coming, sooner than you think. General rule: the smaller the ICE, the less efficient it is and pollutes (much) more.
Gasoline mowers prohibited for sale in CA, 2024. Regional Air Quality Council in Colorado proposing same.

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