Tesla suppresses thousands of driving range complaints

[hprose]

From Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range

So, if you were scratching your head wondering how Tesla got so many extra miles out of their batteries, they didn't. It wasn't any technical advantage or wizardry, it was just marketing and lies. They rigged their range estimators to show more miles than the cars could actually go and fudged their numbers with the controlling bodies. This dissonance obviously created a lot of customer complaints and service requests. Then Elon created a team to cancel appointments when customers created appointments for range issues so they wouldn't lose money on service.

"If the remote diagnostics found anything else wrong with the vehicle that was not related to driving range, advisors were instructed not to tell the customer, one of the sources said. Managers told them to close the cases.

Tesla also updated its phone app so that any customer who complained about range could no longer book service appointments, one of the sources said. Instead, they could request that someone from Tesla contact them. It often took several days before owners were contacted because of the large backlog of range complaints, the source said."

Obviously, the right thing to do was to just fix the software to show the correct estimate. The more we get to know about Elon, the more we realize the great and all powerful Oz is really just a con.

Glad I didn't fall for the marketing hype.

People believe lies if the lie is something they want to believe. Range in EVs and ICEs depends on your driving habits, terrain and the weather. Drivers who never checked their range or mpg for their ICEs are checking m/kw to 3 decimal places. Heavy foot and/or high speed = lower range. Cold weather = lower range. That applies to ICEs as well as EVs. Gas prices are up 15% in the last 2 weeks. Be happy.

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[Susanne76]

Fun activity - looking for the Reuters article on Twitter (now X)

Here's a reply from Edmunds which states that no Tesla vehicle has ever met its advertised range in their testing:

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/re...r-range-results-and-gaslit-its-customers.html

 

[eleven24]

Ib


I recently got a Model 3 Performance. The fine print on the window sticker under fuel economy says it'll average 300Wh/mi which, with its battery, means ~270mi. You have to do the math yourself (and know it's a 82kWh battery) to find the range. I think that's pretty accurate. HOWEVER using that 5- cycle test, the EPA gives it a 315mi range, which is what is listed as well as the window sticker and likely what most people look at (especially since it's the number Tesla uses on their website)!

The issue is the 5-cycle test is realistic for mix/ city driving, but the reality is no one cares about range then. People care about range on long trips (highway driving). I think the EPA should do a standard 70mph test for range on EVs, that's what consumers really care about.

All that said, when you take a trip, it's ridiculously accurate. I often arrive at the predicted percentage battery +/- 1%. Last trip it told me I lost 0.2% range due to a 5.6mph wind from ENE.

As for the original post. I think 2 things. 1, when tesla was the only game in town they inflated their numbers to get people to accept EVs as viable transportation. Once others came along, they couldn't really deflate them because it would make the new cars look like they had less range than the old ones. 2, a lot of people new to EVs don't understand how optimistic those EPA estimates are so i imagine tons of people complain. In Teslas case it's ridiculously easy to do because it's only a few clicks in the Tesla app to do it.

It's messed up to cancel anyone's service request, no doubt about it. I'm not sure if there were calls to customers to explain or if they were just straight up canceled. It sounds like they were actually talking to people and convincing them it was normal (without actually checking!)

Tesla did build a self test mode for people to check their battery health at home, but it's a process!!! Basically you have to get the car to <50% charge, hook it up to a L2 charger or higher, then let the software do its thing... it'll generate heat to depleat the battery, then charge it up via the L2+ charger. This can take up to 24hrs(!!). After that's done it'll let you know if your battery is good or not.

I agree with you on the Tesla nav's accuracy. There is no debate there, but the origin of this discussion was the report that Elon/Tesla intentionally misled on their stated range, and subsequently (as reported) had a team that canceled service appointments from people thinking something was wrong with their car when it wasn't getting the same range.

Honestly, I get the canceling appointments - provided the customers were notified as to why. I understand that elevation, wind, temperature and speed largely dictate the range one gets, but many people do not. Those are likely the ones who requested service.

What I do know is that under ideal conditions I got nowhere near the 330 mile range in my Model Y. Yes, I still thought the car was terrific as far as power management and charging went, but this article simply made me think - yeah, that's true. I never got anywhere near 330 miles.

The Mach-E ironically, I'm seeing a much higher range than Ford states. For now, at least.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Tesla does have a real time range estimate that is very accurate under the efficiency screen. You can even customize it based on how much driving history to take into account.

 

[DevSecOps]

Tesla does have a real time range estimate that is very accurate under the efficiency screen. You can even customize it based on how much driving history to take into account.

Oh stop ... that doesn't fit the narrative of this thread ?

 

[superdave80]

Please enlighten me... on what California freeway can you travel under the limit and not impede traffic?

On any two or more lane highway. Semi trucks legally HAVE to travel (55 MPH) below the 'regular' speed limits (65 or 70) on California highways. So if they are able to travel below the regular speed limit, and they aren't impeding traffic, logically I can travel at that same speed and not be impeding traffic. Which I do.

I commute on highway 101 (65 MPH limit) at 60 MPH, and I still actually PASS other cars, and traffic flows fine on it. Because we slower vehicles get in the right lane so faster traffic can use the left lane(s).

 

[Ghost Ryder]

I agree with you on the Tesla nav's accuracy. There is no debate there, but the origin of this discussion was the report that Elon/Tesla intentionally misled on their stated range, and subsequently (as reported) had a team that canceled service appointments from people thinking something was wrong with their car when it wasn't getting the same range.

Honestly, I get the canceling appointments - provided the customers were notified as to why. I understand that elevation, wind, temperature and speed largely dictate the range one gets, but many people do not. Those are likely the ones who requested service.

What I do know is that under ideal conditions I got nowhere near the 330 mile range in my Model Y. Yes, I still thought the car was terrific as far as power management and charging went, but this article simply made me think - yeah, that's true. I never got anywhere near 330 miles.

The Mach-E ironically, I'm seeing a much higher range than Ford states. For now, at least.

What's ideal condition? The only ideal condition is to replicate the EPA test. Otherwise your normal use case it different from mine or others. Most of my driving is on the hwy at above 80mph. I get nowhere the rated range, nor would I expect to.

people keep saying that Tesla doesn't get the range in "real world driving." but no one ever defined that other than the EPA. And under EPA testing cycle, Tesla does achieve their stated range.

 

[DevSecOps]

On any two or more lane highway. Semi trucks legally HAVE to travel (55 MPH) below the 'regular' speed limits (65 or 70) on California highways. So if they are able to travel below the regular speed limit, and they aren't impeding traffic, logically I can travel at that same speed and not be impeding traffic. Which I do.

I commute on highway 101 (65 MPH limit) at 60 MPH, and I still actually PASS other cars, and traffic flows fine on it. Because we slower vehicles get in the right lane so faster traffic can use the left lane(s).

Semi trucks have a different speed limit in California yes, which I think is extremely stupid and unsafe. They are not traveling under the speed limit, they are traveling at their speed limit. If you wanna hang out with them on the right go ahead. Traveling 5mph under the limit in any other lane or on a single lane highway would be impeding traffic. I have never traveled on any road in California where free flowing traffic, not in a traffic jam, is moving under the limit without impeding.

The issue is not people moving out of the way. That's what turnouts are for, 2 lane passing zones are for an the right most lanes are for. The problem is people who think they are the hall monitors and that they should determine how fast traffic should flow, which is illegal.

 

[Tha_Ape]

I agree with you on the Tesla nav's accuracy. There is no debate there, but the origin of this discussion was the report that Elon/Tesla intentionally misled on their stated range, and subsequently (as reported) had a team that canceled service appointments from people thinking something was wrong with their car when it wasn't getting the same range.

Honestly, I get the canceling appointments - provided the customers were notified as to why. I understand that elevation, wind, temperature and speed largely dictate the range one gets, but many people do not. Those are likely the ones who requested service.

What I do know is that under ideal conditions I got nowhere near the 330 mile range in my Model Y. Yes, I still thought the car was terrific as far as power management and charging went, but this article simply made me think - yeah, that's true. I never got anywhere near 330 miles.

The Mach-E ironically, I'm seeing a much higher range than Ford states. For now, at least.

Yes, and that's a credit to Ford. I recently saw an article about battery degradation in EVs and the Mach-E appeared to have the least with pretty much everyone else dropping ~10% in the first 2yr/20kmi then leveling off.

Maybe Ford built in a reserve to account for that drop off and was also pessimistic on range. Could also be there's simply not enough data of degradation on 2yr old cars. But it's promising none the less.

Tesla is not the only offender in range lies (https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/), even the MME is on that list. But they are repeat offenders. Some other makes are off by nearly 20%. But Tesla of all companies know what their cars can do... the sheer amount of driving data they have is huge. I think their only way out of this is to get bigger/ better batteries and keep saying the range is 330 (or whatever), eventually it'll be accurate ?

 

[superdave80]

They are not traveling under the speed limit, they are traveling at their speed limit.

Irrelevant. They are driving on the same highway as the rest of us at a slower speed, and are not impeding traffic. If my speed limit is 70, and the truck I'm cruising behind is doing 55 (their limit), I'm traveling under my limit and not impeding traffic.

If you wanna hang out with them on the right go ahead.

I do sometimes.

Traveling 5mph under the limit in any other lane or on a single lane highway would be impeding traffic.

Nope. I frequently travel at 60MPH in the center of a three lane highway (if the right lane has even slower traffic). If the ocassional faster car shows up, they go in the left lane and go around me.

I have never traveled on any road in California where free flowing traffic, not in a traffic jam, is moving under the limit without impeding.

Never? Ever? Not even once? Strange, I see it all the time during my commute.

 

[Auto Motive]

Reuters put out an interesting article about Tesla has created a "secret team" whose sole job function is to cancel service requests by customers who are complaining about not getting the stated range shown on the dash.

Link to article:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

Something most folks should read, particularly if you are new to EV's, and are not entirely up to date on what to REALISTICALLY expect from (any EV) in terms of driving range, based on real world environmental driving conditions.

Long story short Ford is actually very honest about what to expect in the real world, and for a long time prior to more recent updates, was actually very pessimistic with the range figures shown on the dash GOM (Guess'O Meter). Many new customers totally bashed Ford for that honesty, even though Ford was preparing you for the real world and what was actually achievable based on current limitations of EV technology.

Tesla on the other hand has ALWAYS exaggerated their range figures, by essentially displaying the EPA rated range on the dash no matter what the weather was like, no matter how heavy your foot was in past driving, and no matter how hilly the terrain was when driving. Folks celebrated Tesla for this and automotive reviewers took these figures at face value for years touting how Tesla was the King of range, when in reality other comparable EV's with less (displayed range) are actually achieving more REAL WORLD RANGE than a Tesla that displays more range on the dash. A real world example of this can be seen in Mike Maloney's side by side range test of the Long Range Tesla dual motor Model Y, and the Long Range Preimum 4x Mach-E where the Mach-E actually DROVE FURTHER than the model Y before hitting empty, and actually got further than what the dash told him he would get. In comparison the Model Y told him he would get much further than he did, and also failed to match the range of the Mach-E, despite being advertised with a much higher range, which reviewers routinely use to show Teslas superiority.

Here is the bottom line though.. those folks who complain about this stuff (no matter what manufacturers vehicle you drive) are actually uninformed to the realities of what to actually expect in the real world with current EV battery technology. The guys complaining at Ford are ignorant to the realities of what Ford is trying to tell you with real world figures and simply don't like how they feel when they see dimished range figures displayed, and the Tesla customers who complain about not getting the range advertised and shown on the dash are also ignorant of the same realities, and are pissed off about the fact that those big numbers displayed on screen which made them feel soo good, are totally not achievable in the real world in all but the best ideal controlled conditions.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that manufacturers have a responsibility to educate their consumers to the realities of the technology, and consumers need to do their freaking homework and research before making such a monumental investment in an electric vehicle!

Our GTPE runs the 65 mph highway test with ac on outside temp 80 deg at 3.0kwh vs our new model Y AWD long range at 4.5kwh.

 

[leehinde]

I think discussing the accuracy of the EPA ranges misses the point. I don't think anyone thinks for ICE or EVs that you always get exactly that mpg/range. The way the EPA number is useful is as a comparison tool. (as some one pointed out, they bought a Tesla because the EPA estimate was higher than the Mach-E). Tesla explicitly inflated that number and in Edmunds testing the car always fell short. All (but one) of the competitors met or exceeded their advertised range in a specific test.

Whether you get that EPA range on Tuesdays when the wind is blowing while you brush your teeth traveling down a freeway with a 3 percent incline is beside the point. No one said there would be a relationship between the two.

Semi-related, watching the fanboys twist into knots on r/TeslaMotors is fun way to spend a few minutes.

 

[kindofblue]

Reading this I have to wonder if they don't also have a "secret team" that calls you when you schedule a service call for phantom breaking (which happened to us a number of times coming back from Mammoth CA last year). They said the emergency breaking was a "feature". I said it was a safety "feature" when it brakes suddenly for no reason whatsoever. We were just fortunate that no one was behind us when it happened.

With that response from Tesla I decided I was no longer going to be a "beta" tester for them (the MY had no FSD functions) and traded it in for a BMW i4 as soon as I could and was glad to have the MME in our garage last Nov.

And yes, I did submit a report to NHTSA on its phantom breaking.

 

[devmach-e]

In my mind the EPA rating should be a standardized set of tests so you can compare like vehicles.

Congratulations, that is exactly what the EPA tests are designed to do: allow you to compare similar vehicles to see which one is more efficient. Every car on the road, regardless of the powertrain, uses the same tests. Doesn't matter if it is a Mach-E, a Prius, or a diesel pickup. They all use the same tests.

 

[devmach-e]

It's illegal to travel under the limit, at the limit or even over the limit if impeding traffic. Most of the time this is done by going too slow. California has Vehicle Code 22400, the minimum speed law, to prohibit drivers from driving so slowly that they “impede the normal flow of traffic.”

Except that there are different limits for different vehicles. 70 MPH on I-5. Unless you are a semi, or towing, in which case you are limited to 55. Or going down the grapevine limited to 35 for semis. The minimum speed law doesn't define what that minimum speed is. It is up to the discretion of the officer who pulled you over if that minimum speed is 55 or 45 on I5. Road conditions, traffic, and weather all come into play as to what the limit should be, whether it is the maximum or minimum speed.

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