The EV Naysayers

[mkhuffman]

Some good points for a homeowner with private L2 home charging available to them (and a whole-house generator).

Most ICEV require spark plugs every 100,000 miles (near 10 years of ownership) and $65 oil changes at 8,500 to 10,000 miles, so once per year. Engine air filter replacements are typically 45,000 miles, so every 4 years and most cars take 10 minutes to install a $18 air filter. As a counterpoint, I've read on the MME forum the strategies taken to rotate tires on the MME. It seems overly difficult to perform DIY tire rotations considering the lack of chassis points to lift the MME. One has to be careful of where the jack points are and not use the battery as a chassis member to lift the car. There are aftermarket pucks made for the MME rocker panel (and "No-Lift" stickers) to help. In the time it takes to get tires rotated, the engine of an ICEV can be drained and refilled.

So, while EV naysayers possibly overestimate road trip charging times, having to do the minimal ICEV annual maintenance and tune up an ICE every 10 years as a burden espoused by EV advocates is a bit of a stretch also.

I think the hurricane scenario is a bit of a stretch as well. When hurricane Isabel hit in 2003, we were actually without power for a week. I have a portable generator I run the house on under such circumstances, so I didn't die. But I live on a river, so I was flooded in for a few days, so I couldn't go anywhere anyway (lol). I finally got out using my ICEV 4x4 Truck and Jeep to drive through 30" of water to get out. I'm not sure an MME or Tesla would have been able to do that. I found the electricity in town (where the gas stations are) was on; the grocery store had plenty of fresh food too. I'm sure hurricanes in Florida can be worse, but I'll counter with the numerous flooded EV car fire stories we've all heard or read about. But personally, I can store 18 gallons of gasoline, so in advance of a hurricane I can fuel up my gas car(s) and fuel stores and have easily thousands of miles of range. I have three ICEV with 400+ miles tank range and two with 350 miles - so with the 18 gallons stored and full tanks in all the cars, that's 2,300 miles of range (if the gas stations were out of power that long).

The benefit of 0 - 60 times is a bit pointless in real world use (I'll leave the MME HVBJB issue alone). All my ICE cars (one is 26 years old - @ 8.2 sec.) have completely adequate acceleration capabilities to drive in traffic. We can also leave out of the discussion track use where most EV overheat or run out of energy quickly as a counter point.

And I 100% agree, the MME is a great looking vehicle whether ICEV or EV. Just in the EV market, it is the best looking with the Tycan and Volvo EX-30 not far behind. Compared to Tesla's STALE products, the MME actually has some art to it.

But all my jibber jabber above is personal use case (which was my point - and yours). But looking at the generic automotive market that has a significant number of buyer share who do not have access to L2 private charging, I don't see where EV offers a true advantage when charging comes into play. Based on the MME owner's manual, my understanding is constantly charging with DCFC equipment accelerates HVB battery degradation and shortens total battery life. On top of wintertime non-preconditioning of the battery and cabin, the non-private charging owner kind of gets a bit screwed with EV IMO. Extended road trips are the issue in my opinion. While there are numerous threads and posts here that show EV road trips are feasible, from an ICEV owner's point of view, the extra fuel-stop planning required and somewhat limited path-options involved, greatly moves the needle on the pain-in-the-assometer (PITAM).

It appears we are in agreement that EV are case specific. I am fine with that. It's the legislative side of the discussion I have great issue with. The legislative side is going to positively affect EV advocates (theoretically), yet it is going to adversely affect ICEV users greatly. I see an eventual overall lower standard of living coming out of all this, which I think is unfair to everyone.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/2022-rivian-r1t-bear-lake-boat-launch-retrieval/

Sponsored

 

[mkhuffman]

This:

What happens after 2 years?

 

[4sallypat]

There are millions and millions of Americans that don't care who drives an EV. The problems start when you or politicians tell them they have to drive an EV also.

^^^ Yes, this is correct.

California passed a regulation that by 2035 all new vehicle sales will be EV.

That's not only harsh, but unrealistic - many people will revolt when told they have to drive an EV.

Can't see everyone driving an EV when we don't even have state + federal paid chargers yet.

10 year to go and very pathetic for a state that has the highest EV adoption rate (20-25%).

Yesterday, had a difficult time finding a DCFC in the South Bay (So Calif) - went to 2 EVGo and 2 EA - all were 50% operational with long lines. The local mall had 16 EV chargers (all 7kW) which was useless.

Ended up 45 minutes later going to an ARCO gas station that had 2 100kW chargers that actually worked and no line.

Just glad I was not in a hurry...

 

[Mirak]

- No oil changes.
- No spark plug changes.
- No engine air cleaner to replace.
- I can refuel at home, and never need a unplanned stop somewhere to refuel (when staying local).
- I can start the car in the garage with the garage door closed.
- It is twice as fast to 60 mph than any ICE car I have owned.
- It is not just quiet, it is silent at idle and slow speeds (of course I had to disconnect the idiotic government mandated pedestrian speaker to get this benefit).
- After a hurricane that knocks out power for a week, I can refuel my car with my NG generator if needed so I am not stranded even if all the gas stations are without power.
- I can refuel for free at hotels and my office building (when the charger hog a-holes move their cars).
- it is very efficient and refueling cost is significantly less than ICE when refueling at home or when using the free chargers that are available. (DCFC can be similar in cost to ICE refueling.)
- it's an adventure being part of the early adopter crowd and it is fun to stategize the best way to get to a destination that requires charging. (This is also a negative for many people, but for the adventurous type, it can be fun. It was definitely more fun when it was easier to find working and avaliable public chargers.)
- MMM specific: it is a great looking car. I am still getting compliments from people who see the car. Just yesterday the car wash kids complimented how it looks.

This doesn't mean BEVs are ready for the normal driver. I don't think they are. But it was the right purchase for me.

Good list. I agree with all of it except for the “adventure” part. Man, I am getting tired of this adventure.

But there are a lot of fun benefits to owning an EV, fo sho.

 

[Jimrpa]

I love my Mustang Mach E and don’t regret one bit switching to an EV. That said, I actively discourage most of my friends from even THINKING about EVs. Most of my friends are intelligent, well-educated, and technologically savvy. They’re also “human beings”. For example, one married couple I know, I could picture their marriage coming to a violent, bloody end the first time they’d have to charge a car on a road trip. The wife has little patience for some things and would go ballistic at the first non-functional, or full charger they encountered. Another friend is the type who wouldn’t bother to investigate and learn about the technology (I have to remind him to upgrade iOS on his phone ?). And I can’t imagine any of my friends taking time to understand, or deal with the 12V battery and system.

 

[mkhuffman]

Not sure what your point is. Who stores gasoline for 2 years? The fuel I'd buy in preparation of a hurricane if I didn't use it for the hurricane, I'd just use it in my zero-turn mower during the next summer season or pour it in one of my vehicles.

After 2 years with Stabil in the fuel, the not-fresh gasoline would still burn in an engine without trouble.

I had lots of containers for hurricane gasoline also but then switched to a propane powered generator because it is much easier to store propane, and it doesn't go bad. Then I got one that I can run off a NG connection on my house - even better.

If you never run gasoline in the tri-fuel generator, the carburetor stays nice and clean and doesn't stop working after a couple years. I ended up trashing multiple generators because I couldn't get them start, I think because the carburetor was shot. I got tired of that also.

 

[ARK]

What is your definition of an "older person"? I was born in the 1960's. Other than a few automotive forums, I don't use social media. I think you are implying old people ignorantly resist change.

What are the benefits of owning an EV? I've been on this forum since September and spent hours reading all sorts of threads. I've yet to find a benefit over ICEV. Make your case.

I wouldn’t call it ignorance, it’s just a comfort level thing and an eagerness to try new things. Things like social media, streaming, smartphones, all sorts of tech that doesn’t require lots of money (like cars) traditionally takes hold with the college-set before the retired-set.

The big benefits to EV ownership are greater vehicle performance for the price, being able to charge at home, cheaper operation, a quieter more enjoyable powertrain particularly if we are talking about getting an EV to replace a vehicle with something like a turbo four engine and a CVT transmission.

 

[mkhuffman]

Good list. I agree with all of it except for the “adventure” part. Man, I am getting tired of this adventure.

But there are a lot of fun benefits to owning an EV, fo sho.

I know. Now the "adventure" comes with a lot more stress. I have a great plan but you can't plan for the a-holes, broken chargers and long lines. Stopping for 20-30 minutes to refuel is bearable. Stopping for a hour or more is maddening.

 

[cvk71]

I think the government needs to take a step back and realize PHeV isn’t a half measure, it really is the solution for most of the country.

Fixes all the range, cost, material, and infrastructure issues……..while helping the environment.

Mandating hybridization would have been a great first step. Proven tech, not a huge price impact, and how can anyone complain about better gas mileage. Well someone would complain, they always do.

 

[cvk71]

Did you try explaining to them that it is actually better to stop twice for 30-40 minutes each way, stretch your legs, and get a few meals? You could have taught them how to use plugshare to research working chargers in advance. People are never gonna adopt if we don’t correct the misinformation and change their way of thinking!!!

I see your charge door and raise you sarcasm. ?

 

[Mach1E]

Mandating hybridization would have been a great first step. Proven tech, not a huge price impact, and how can anyone complain about better gas mileage. Well someone would complain, they always do.

Wasn’t suggesting mandates.

More just that it should be allowed as part of the solution.

 

[Auto Motive]

I agree with basically your entire post. I will just say that the PIA meter for me is pretty high when it comes to getting gas when I need to get to a local destination, and also pretty high regarding maintenance. Once a year items seem to always come up at a inconvenient time.

But that is just me. I hate those things. I purchased a battery powered lawn mower because I hated all the maintenance required on a gas one. Now I only have to worry about charging the batteries. Ever. So much easier for me.

Edit: storing gasoline is also a huge PIA because it goes bad.

I know. Now the "adventure" comes with a lot more stress. I have a great plan but you can't plan for the a-holes, broken chargers and long lines. Stopping for 20-30 minutes to refuel is bearable. Stopping for a hour or more is maddening.

Exactly why we bought the 2023 Model Y AWD long range. At 75 we wanted a easy time traveling. The chargers in PA OH and Wv didnt work, wouldnt hook up, not maintained and were slow when they did run. The superchargers worked, well maintained and fast. Y charged in 15 minutes got 140 to 150 miles. Once we get the adapter we'll use the GTPE more for weekend getaways.

 

[Ghost Mach-E]

Big ?.

 

[nvabill]

Big ?.

Exactly, yawn, yawn. Beat that dead horse! ?

 

[Scooby24]

OMG I'm posting in a locked thread I must be admin

Sponsored