Don’t expect ford to own up to their mistakes.

[VindictivePantz]

Apple actually does push OTAs to out of warranty devices. 1 year warranty, but usually at least 5 years of firmware updates.

And funny that you mention Apple. They provide a similar precedent… batteryGate.

Forgot about the battery thing, but if they brick your device, it'll get taken care of.

Ford needs an out-of-support clause that's clear, and technical methods of stopping OTAs to vehicles that are out-of-support.

Otherwise, there will be legal challenges.

Not sure what Tesla and other EV manufacturers do, but the industry needs to be consistent, ideally, to help remove a valid concern that will eventually apply to ICE vehicles as well as they become more software dependent.

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[Sikkun]

Don't get me wrong. I think it's complete BS.

They have to think like an IT company, not a car manufacturer. Either stop OTAs on out of warranty cars, or pay for what an OTA breaks.

Others on this forum disagree, but it's 2024, and it's a software warranty issue, not a car warranty issue. Apple stops pushing updates to out-of-support devices. Ford (and others) need to follow well established practices that people are used to.

EDIT: Also, what would the world come to if people stopped disagreeing on the Internet? ?

How often does Microsoft pay out for a hard drive getting corrupted during OS updates? Are they even liable?

 

[Scarpia]

Here is the answer. @Ford Motor Company is trying to cut down on their recall costs. They think doing additional inspections after the vehicle is built and sitting in the parking lot will cut down on recalls. But doing more inspections after the car is already built will not solve the root cause of the problem. They should be doing in-process inspections and correcting production problems as they occur. And Farley, being a former employee at Toyota, should know this.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...bronco-and-explorer-models?srnd=industries-v2

Although interesting, this is completely irrelevant to the issue being discussed. The thread is discussing OTA software updates to cars already in the hands of customers - not anything having to do with pre-delivery inspections.

The Bloomberg article requires registration to read it.

 

[Scarpia]

How often does Microsoft pay out for a hard drive getting corrupted during OS updates? Are they even liable?

I haven't ever heard of hardware getting corrupted by an OS update - only software.

 

[VindictivePantz]

How often does Microsoft pay out for a hard drive getting corrupted during OS updates? Are they even liable?

Depends. I purposely did not include Microsoft as what they will and won't do, because Microsoft.

One could argue that the support threshold for a car should be higher than a laptop, especially something like the 1PD issue.

 

[garyd9]

How often does Microsoft pay out for a hard drive getting corrupted during OS updates? Are they even liable?

That’s very different. A user is able to reformat a corrupted drive and install the same or different OS without special tools, knowledge, etc.

With the car, a user has NO recourse if the OTA corrupts the car EXCEPT to pay money to Ford to fix the corruption (via an FDRS license at best, or via an expensive diagnostic fee to a Ford agent (dealership) where the FDRS license fee is still being paid.)

 

[Sikkun]

That’s very different. A user is able to reformat a corrupted drive and install the same or different OS without special tools, knowledge, etc.

With the car, a user has NO recourse if the OTA corrupts the car EXCEPT to pay money to Ford to fix the corruption (via an FDRS license at best, or via an expensive diagnostic fee to a Ford agent (dealership) where the FDRS license fee is still being paid.)

What you described isn’t any different. On a laptop, a user, may have the tools, skill, and ability to restore said hard drive. Or have to buy a new one.

Nor do I think 99% of general PC users would view the ability to recover from that, install a new OS, etc. as requiring no knowledge or tools. Especially when you only have 1 computer and it currently can’t boot….

At least I can’t get my in-laws to stop calling every time they break a computer.

A user in this case also has the ability to purchase the tools to fix the problem.

Not saying I agree with it. Just pointing out “they need to think like a software company” isn’t really a solution either. Software companies break stuff all the time and never pay you to fix it.

We need actual regulation that spells out who is liable.

 

[AKgrampy]

Your logic is flawed. Stating that something IS covered does NOT exclude it otherwise.

Regardless, if Ford pushes the OTA to the car, and it breaks the car, a lawyer might argue successfully that Ford is responsible regardless of the warranty period.

Of course, it would take someone fluent with contract law, consumer law, etc to interpret. You and I chatting about it is really meaningless. Anyone who wants a good legal opinion should talk to a lawyer, and ignore the opinion of “the internet”.

Although I agree with you in general here is the issue I see - what are the damages? $260 What lawyer is going to take up a case for that? We are talking about the diagnostic fee. I agree Ford should cover it and is ridiculous for not doing so.

 

[AllenXS]

With one issue I was advised I would be charged to diagnose the issue, however, if it was deemed to be Ford’s issue then they would then be charged not me for diagnostics. It was a warranty item that I made sure was resolved before the end of warranty.

 

[jetermeyer]

I agree Ford/Dealer should fix this. Hard to see the logic from Ford or the dealer when they will definately lose a customer by something so simple. I do see two options, someone with FDRS could do it for you with a nominal fee and since that option is avaialable I'm surprised someone hasn't figured out a small business, second many items broken by OTA get fixed in future releases. So could this be one of them? You could wait this out to see since the car works fine without 1PD. None of these reduce your very understandable frustration.

 

[HuntingPudel]

Forgot about the battery thing, but if they brick your device, it'll get taken care of.

Ford needs an out-of-support clause that's clear, and technical methods of stopping OTAs to vehicles that are out-of-support.
<SNIP>

I think you are confusing out of support with out of warranty. Apple stops software updates to hardware because the OS requires something of the hardware that isn’t present in the older hardware. It is simply hardware that is not supported in the software. Warranty status has nothing to do with the cutoff, just the fact that the physical older hardware and new software are incompatible. ?‍?

 

[VindictivePantz]

I think you are confusing out of support with out of warranty. Apple stops software updates to hardware because the OS requires something of the hardware that isn’t present in the older hardware. It is simply hardware that is not supported in the software. Warranty status has nothing to do with the cutoff, just the fact that the physical older hardware and new software are incompatible. ?‍?

Not confusing it - it's that exact parsing that needs to be clearer, accompanied by what remedies, if any are provided by supported but out-of-warranty vehicles when an OTA breaks something that is supported but out-of-warranty.

This is also a vehicle, which makes where the cost burden lies relative to support and warranty status even more important to make clear.

The fact that there are multiple threads on this shows how terribly confusing and frustrating it is.

To add another wrinkle, let's say Ford says 2021s are out of support and warranty, but I have an active BC or Nav subscription that requires OTAs, and those OTAs impact something NOT related to my subscribed services? In that scenario, I am paying for a subscription (which tends to imply some form of support/warranty - I'd need to look it up) - but most likely for those services only.

We've seen OTAs meant to "fix" or enhance one thing break others unrelated.

I am assuming it exists in the EULA and/or warranty documentation, but it's obviously not very clear and is going to be an issue - even for ICE vehicles, and time goes on.

 

[Snakebitten]

I know it isn't the solution for many people and I get it.

But avoiding dealerships and all their potential shenanigans, ESPECIALLY when it comes to software, and CERTAINLY if out of warranty, the Mongoose OBD adapter is a wonderful thing to have in the toolbox.

When you buy a Mach-E, you need to also buy a nice EVSE.
And a Mongoose. ?

 

[HuntingPudel]

<SNIP>
To add another wrinkle, let's say Ford says 2021s are out of support and warranty, but I have an active BC or Nav subscription that requires OTAs,
<SNIP>

In this case the car is out of warranty but not out of support. The particular software in question is still supported by the hardware. Ford would be wrong in saying it’s not supported. Also, were these subscriptions being paid for and your account was up to date Ford should have some sort of responsibility to update the software being subscribed to, just as Microsoft would be responsible to provide updates to Microsoft 365 to a subscriber whose account is up to date (depending on the subscription contract). ?‍?

 

[Motomax]

Spoke to the Ford Customer care support supervisor today. They refused to escalate my case to a manager or different department. Absolutely ridiculous @Ford Motor Company.

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