Heat pump vs non heat pump. What is the difference in efficiency

[grein002]

Sadly, my HOA would never allow me to put in a ground source heat pump. I’d love to get one.

Just wondering what interest the HOA has in your heat pump system? A ground-sourced heat pump, once installed, doesn't leave a visible footprint. I have one on a sub-quarter acre lot (with an HOA, but they are a small, low-keyed one). Two 210' bore holes were drilled in my back yard. The only visible evidence is the lack of an outside compressor, as mine is in my garage.

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[Jimrpa]

Just wondering what interest the HOA has in your heat pump system? A ground-sourced heat pump, once installed, doesn't leave a visible footprint. I have one on a sub-quarter acre lot (with an HOA, but they are a small, low-keyed one). Two 210' bore holes were drilled in my back yard. The only visible evidence is the lack of an outside compressor, as mine is in my garage.

Not to get too off-topic, but the mission of our HOA is to be as petty as possible while protecting the “interests” of non-resident investors. They are truly evil, disgusting creatures.

 

[Murse-In-Airy]

Do you happen to know what brand and model heat pumps you have? In particularly high moisture environments there are additional considerations to ensure comfort and functionality (such as raising them up high, avoiding exposing them to excessive wind, etc.) The below video has a nice overview of heat pump defrost cycles, why they happen, and how they can be mitigated to maintain comfort:






You can get it via imported equipment right now (Mitsubishi is probably the most common but others exist). In terms of local brands, it's coming, slowly, but seems to be coming. The DOE has a cold climate challenge which seems to be helping slowly nudge local HVAC manufacturers to up their game:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/buildings/residential-cold-climate-heat-pump-challenge



I don't know what available in the automotive world nor what Ford has sourced for the Mach-E, but modern cold climate heat pumps work far below those temperatures. The DOE Cold Climate challenge (referenced above) has a -15°F (-26°C) test that several manufacturers are close to achieving (imported heat pumps can already achieve this) and a less challenging -5F (-20C) challenge that several both domestic and import manufacturers can already achieve with products on the market.

I have Mitsubishi air source heat pumps. Just installed last year. They are the latest and greatest installed to meet NY requirements for high energy efficiency upgrade tax advantages. But on a really cold morning, getting down around 0° or below, they spend more time in defrost than out of it. They never ice up like your attachment. But they do become more of a burden than a help. I do not want that in my car to get me 25 more miles of range.

 

[devmach-e]

Not to get too off-topic, but the mission of our HOA is to be as petty as possible while protecting the “interests” of non-resident investors. They are truly evil, disgusting creatures.

Given all the horror stories I see, I will never live in a place with an HOA.

 

[Jimrpa]

Given all the horror stories I see, I will never live in a place with an HOA.

Actually, for the first 28 years I lived here, we had a very nice, chill board (membership changed, of course, but they were all decent). Then the lawyers and religious nuts took over in a very nasty way, including a personal smear social media campaign against some of the people who used to be active in the association. My goal is to just fly under their radar and avoid notice.

 

[Zardoz]

You would be wrong. They work very well these days. Down to -20F or lower.

I happily stand corrected! I hope to get another 10 years out of my current setup and look forward to better options when I need it.

 

[RickMachE]

The problem with not wanting an HOA is that in many places, developments can't be built because the township / county doesn't want the road maintenance. Our development of over 100 homes has miles of roads that we have to maintain - plowing and repaving. Repaving is $175 - $300,000 per road. We have one left to do after starting 15 years ago, sometimes skipping a year or two.

The problem with not having an HOA is when your neighbor decides that storing things all over their yard is ok, unless you have a township that will take action. Your property value goes down, and you're helpless to stop it.

Not a fan, but after living in communities with HOAs since 1994 I'm resigned to one.

 

[devmach-e]

I happily stand corrected! I hope to get another 10 years out of my current setup and look forward to better options when I need it.

They're pretty amazing. We replaced our ancient (60+ year) forced-air gas furnace with a heat-pump and I haven't looked back. Now, I'm in the SF Bay Area, and on the coast it rarely gets below freezing, so a cold climate unit wasn't necessary. Nor was it necessary to put heat-strips in the air handler. But it handled the past winter just fine, and for cheaper than it would've been to run the gas furnace. Bonus was that we got central AC which we definitely needed earlier this month.

There's a subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/heatpumps/ that has people chiming in from cold climate areas with reports of it working very well down to sub-zero temperatures. Including people from Minnesota, Maine, NY, Quebec, etc who all report surviving sub-zero temps without having to engage the backup system, or not having one at all. Now, it definitely helps to up your insulation and fix leaks to help retain heat, but that's helpful no matter what sort of heating system you put in a house.

 

[Jimrpa]

The problem with not wanting an HOA is that in many places, developments can't be built because the township / county doesn't want the road maintenance. Our development of over 100 homes has miles of roads that we have to maintain - plowing and repaving. Repaving is $175 - $300,000 per road. We have one left to do after starting 15 years ago, sometimes skipping a year or two.

The problem with not having an HOA is when your neighbor decides that storing things all over their yard is ok, unless you have a township that will take action. Your property value goes down, and you're helpless to stop it.

Not a fan, but after living in communities with HOAs since 1994 I'm resigned to one.

I was the treasurer who did the original planning for our road repaving project. We would have had 6 roads done in 12 years at about $250K/road (not inflation adjusted) without assessments or increases in association fees to do it. Since the politburo took over, that project has gone by the wayside, while our capital reserves have somehow decreased by about 60%, despite annual increases in association fees (I felt guilty if we had to increase fees in 3 years). There are good lawyers and evil, despicable, vile, disgusting lawyers. If anyone needs a lawyer of the later ilk, let me know - I have lots of references for you ?

 

[Space_Pony]

They're pretty amazing. We replaced our ancient (60+ year) forced-air gas furnace with a heat-pump and I haven't looked back. Now, I'm in the SF Bay Area, and on the coast it rarely gets below freezing, so a cold climate unit wasn't necessary. Nor was it necessary to put heat-strips in the air handler. But it handled the past winter just fine, and for cheaper than it would've been to run the gas furnace. Bonus was that we got central AC which we definitely needed earlier this month.

There's a subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/heatpumps/ that has people chiming in from cold climate areas with reports of it working very well down to sub-zero temperatures. Including people from Minnesota, Maine, NY, Quebec, etc who all report surviving sub-zero temps without having to engage the backup system, or not having one at all. Now, it definitely helps to up your insulation and fix leaks to help retain heat, but that's helpful no matter what sort of heating system you put in a house.

Don't they still defrost? Doesn't backup(resistance) heat run at that time. My heat pump has no defrost and backup heat has never run.

 

[devmach-e]

Don't they still defrost? Doesn't backup(resistance) heat run at that time. My heat pump has no defrost and backup heat has never run.

I’ve seen the heatpump compressor go into defrost mode once in the 17 months we’ve owned it. It has a pan heater to help with that, and doesn’t necessarily have to run the system in cooling mode to defrost the coil. No cold air came out of the vents when this happened.

 

[Space_Pony]

I’ve seen the heatpump compressor go into defrost mode once in the 17 months we’ve owned it. It has a pan heater to help with that, and doesn’t necessarily have to run the system in cooling mode to defrost the coil. No cold air came out of the vents when this happened.

When we had our air source heat pump, it seemed like the only time we got heat was when the defrost(backup heat) kicked in when it was 20F or below. Wound up tearing it all out and trenching in pipes into a couple acres of one of my horse pastures and into my Waterfurnace.

 

[devmach-e]

When we had our air source heat pump, it seemed like the only time we got heat was when the defrost(backup heat) kicked in when it was 20F or below. Wound up tearing it all out and trenching in pipes into a couple acres of one of my horse pastures and into my Waterfurnace.

Sounds like a bad install. Was this a forced air (ducted) or mini-splits? So you went geothermal?

 

[Space_Pony]

Sounds like a bad install. Was this a forced air (ducted) or mini-splits? So you went geothermal?

It was a forced air Carrier that was installed before we moved in in 1998. We installed the geothermal about 8 years later after replacing the compressor twice in the old unit. The geothermal has been running great with no problems. The coldest that the geothermal has seen was -20F.

 

[devmach-e]

It was a forced air Carrier that was installed before we moved in in 1998. We installed the geothermal about 8 years later after replacing the compressor twice in the old unit. The geothermal has been running great with no problems. The coldest that the geothermal has seen was -20F.

Sweet! To be fair to air-source heat pumps, things have changed a lot in the last 25+ years. Awesome that you were able to go geothermal.

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