Adding chargers at convenience store/gas stations?

[Logal727]

Not all. There are some good ones. Unfortunately, the chargers weren't working in some of the most convenient pull-throughs and I had to go to another charger in the bank.

You can check out my other @RateYourCharge tweets to see an array of them from the mid-Atlantic south and west to Texas (so far).

How practical is it to unhook the trailer so you can charge? Is it a huge PITA?

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[Mirak]

I know a guy in the convenience store business, so I think my contribution clears the speculative chatter threshold….

First, Wal-Mart and many other shopping areas offer all the easy amenities of convenience stores, and sometimes a lot more. Better food, more to do while you WAIT for charging.

Second, the length of time it takes to charge, relative to pump gas, is a killer for small convenience stores. These stores need rapid turnover, and parking space is too valuable to tie up with cars sitting for 30-45mins at a time.

Third, with the vast majority of charging being done at home, there simply won’t be a need in the distant future for as many fuel stations. You’ll only need enough to satisfy road trippers. The amount of fuel stations will drop by at least 50%. In light of this, tough for small stations to massively “invest” in chargers.

I know one Prominent convenience store chain that is secretly exploring what other services they can provide besides gas that makes it viable to keep most of their stores open. And it doesn’t involve chargers. Again, there will be demand for road trip charging but not nearly enough to sustain all these locations.

In summary, adding chargers make sense for the “big rest stop” model - not so much for smaller stores.

 

[Guss-E 2021]

As someone who underwrite loans to small businesses from doctor's offices, to hotels, Gas Station C-Store to car dealerships and as someone who has to analyze the financial statements of all kinds of businesses, here are my thoughts.

Level 2 charging, though considerably cheaper, does not make a lot of sense at a locations guests will not be staying for more than an hour. Given the amount of time people actually spend at a convenience store, a LV3 charger makes much more sense. However, in most cases, a "mom and pop" convenience store has nowhere near the free cash flow to install a ~$150M (M=$1,000 in the banking world not million) Level 3 charger. At least not in rural New England.

The other issue is the RE (real estate) itself. There are a number of considerations when installing commercial level public EVSE, especially running the kind of transmission lines needed for LV3 (watch the State of Charge interview with grid operators for more deets on that link below).

Now C-stores that also offer some sort of eat-in experience (deli, seating, inside or out) could probably get away with LV2, particularly if they were on a major traffic corridor that also hosts pass through tourist traffic. I just underwrote a new sugar shack (maple syrup production) that will also include a small specialty food store and deli/cafe with sit-in dining. This is new construction along a high traffic count state route between to population centers. Currently there is no real place to stop and grab a bite and there certainly isn't anything for EV charging. In a case like that, yes installing a LV2 would make sense. Given the construction budget, the argument could be made for LV3 as well (particularly factoring in tax credits).

TA, at least around here, sits rather ideally off of I-95 between MA and ME, on a busy rural route right near just about the only Target in the area. And, like already mentioned, it has the money to use EV charging as a loss leader.

I think it is much easier to plan EV charging into new construction than it it is to retrofit existing convenience. I think there needs to be more financial incentives to help small business owners do this. As for existing gas station/C-stores? Well, I actually put EV charging as a risk of stranded assets. Most stations make maybe around six cents for every gallon they sell. The rest is taxes and COGS back to the suppliers. More and more, I'm seeing a trend towards deriving a larger portion of revenue from things other than fuel sales.

If C-stores can reposition themselves as destinations (i.e. ice-cream, picnic tables, etc.), not just quick stops, where less expensive LV2 becomes more viable, I think they can wean off petroleum and stay in the game. If they want to maintain the quick-stop business model, then they are going to have to invest in LV3.

Again just my two cents. Here's Tom's great video (need an hour to kill to watch though).

 

[RickMachE]

How practical is it to unhook the trailer so you can charge? Is it a huge PITA?

If it's a simple trailer like a boat trailer, not hard to lower the tongue jack and unhook, but a pain the butt. If it's a camper with a weight distribution hitch, then it's a royal pain in the butt, coupled with freezing in the winter or melting in the summer.

You could not pay me to tow any distance with the state of EV chargers today.

 

[Blue highway]

One of the complaints from BEV drivers is the lack of amenities at charger stations. Most seem to be installed in shopping center parking lots without easy access to amenities like trash cans, toilets, food and drink, and security. Amenities that are expected at most convenience store/gas stations today. How difficult would it be for existing convenience stores/gas stations to add charging to their offerings?
After all, a charger and a gas pump do the same thing. They refuel vehicles using different technologies. Installing charging at existing convenience store/gas stations would address BEV's drivers complaints. A convenience store/gas station adding charging would be "future proofing" themselves against a changing world.
Most convenience store/gas stations are independently owned. They contract with the Big Oil companies for their gasoline. In most cases, the convenience store/gas stations make most of their profit from their sales of items in their stores with the Big Oil companies keeping most of the profit from selling gasoline.
The biggest obstacle, to adding chargers, would likely be the convenience stores/gas stations contracts with the oil companies supplying their gasoline. Clearly, the contracts would prohibit selling competitors gasoline. Do they prohibit selling competing products using different technologies? Especially, the older stations with contracts from before BEV's became a viable competitor.
Please respond only if you have actual knowledge of these matters. Speculative chatter does not address the question.

One of your assumptions is that big oil owns a lot of gasoline retail locations... nationwide big oil owns ~5% of retail locations.

The biggest obstacle, to adding chargers, would likely be the convenience stores/gas stations contracts with the oil companies supplying their gasoline. Clearly, the contracts would prohibit selling competitors gasoline. - Actually most retail gasoline is bought on the spot market

 

[Blue highway]

As someone who underwrite loans to small businesses from doctor's offices, to hotels, Gas Station C-Store to car dealerships and as someone who has to analyze the financial statements of all kinds of businesses, here are my thoughts.

Level 2 charging, though considerably cheaper, does not make a lot of sense at a locations guests will not be staying for more than an hour. Given the amount of time people actually spend at a convenience store, a LV3 charger makes much more sense. However, in most cases, a "mom and pop" convenience store has nowhere near the free cash flow to install a ~$150M (M=$1,000 in the banking world not million) Level 3 charger. At least not in rural New England.

The other issue is the RE (real estate) itself. There are a number of considerations when installing commercial level public EVSE, especially running the kind of transmission lines needed for LV3 (watch the State of Charge interview with grid operators for more deets on that link below).

Now C-stores that also offer some sort of eat-in experience (deli, seating, inside or out) could probably get away with LV2, particularly if they were on a major traffic corridor that also hosts pass through tourist traffic. I just underwrote a new sugar shack (maple syrup production) that will also include a small specialty food store and deli/cafe with sit-in dining. This is new construction along a high traffic count state route between to population centers. Currently there is no real place to stop and grab a bite and there certainly isn't anything for EV charging. In a case like that, yes installing a LV2 would make sense. Given the construction budget, the argument could be made for LV3 as well (particularly factoring in tax credits).

TA, at least around here, sits rather ideally off of I-95 between MA and ME, on a busy rural route right near just about the only Target in the area. And, like already mentioned, it has the money to use EV charging as a loss leader.

I think it is much easier to plan EV charging into new construction than it it is to retrofit existing convenience. I think there needs to be more financial incentives to help small business owners do this. As for existing gas station/C-stores? Well, I actually put EV charging as a risk of stranded assets. Most stations make maybe around six cents for every gallon they sell. The rest is taxes and COGS back to the suppliers. More and more, I'm seeing a trend towards deriving a larger portion of revenue from things other than fuel sales.

If C-stores can reposition themselves as destinations (i.e. ice-cream, picnic tables, etc.), not just quick stops, where less expensive LV2 becomes more viable, I think they can wean off petroleum and stay in the game. If they want to maintain the quick-stop business model, then they are going to have to invest in LV3.

Again just my two cents. Here's Tom's great video (need an hour to kill to watch though).

Excellent post.

Mostly for economic reasons, existing local gas stations are not going to be converted to have EV charging. Buc-ees, TA, Loves and the like along interstates make more sense as there is something do and spend money on for 40 minutes.

 

[superdave80]

How difficult would it be for existing convenience stores/gas stations to add charging to their offerings?

The last place I want to hang out at for 1/2 an hour is a gas station. When getting gas, I'm just there long enough to use the restroom and grab a snack/drink to take on the road. For charging 20-40 minutes, I want somewhere to sit down and relax for a while. I would think coffee/cafe/fastfood chains (Starbucks, Mcdonalds, etc.) would be a better place to install DC charging.

 

[Logal727]

Excellent post.

Mostly for economic reasons, existing local gas stations are not going to be converted to have EV charging. Buc-ees, TA, Loves and the like along interstates make more sense as there is something do and spend money on for 40 minutes.

Confusingly Buc-ee's has nowhere to sit and eat outside. I've always wondered why, maybe it's a tax classification thing?

 

[DadzBoyz]

Apologies if this has been said.

Most gas stations are franchises. This is why their canopy colors and signs change so much.
Franchisee's are in it for the money, but on a smaller scale. To that end, they are pretty cheap. Why does that gas station on the corner still have old pumps without entertainment screens, etc.? Its owner is a small, local investor that can only afford 1 or 2 locations and generally manages and works the location themselves.

Exxon, Mobile, Racetrack, Speedway (you'll see Racetrack and Speedway locations switch out brands)... Many or most of these are franchisee owned. With the high cost of DCFC equipment and the lack of volume negotiating power (like the larger corporations) you probably won't see many franchisees install them.

There are corporate owned gas retailers (I'll use that term to differentiate from the franchise model). Wawa, Thorntons, Pilot/Flying-J, Travel Center America (TA), Buc-Ees, some 7-Elevens, some BP, some Shell, etc. are either all corporate owned, or a large portion of locations are corporate owned. Corporate owned retailers will likely make the investment in expensive DCFC equipment first. We're seeing that with some of the trucking centric retailers like TA and Pilot/Flying J. Some 7-Elevens are also starting to install DCFC terminals through partnerships with EA, EVGo, etc.

 

[Jimrpa]

I am sure most of us, if not all, would love for this to happen sooner than later,

What gets me are the big malls who does not have chargers? They could have all their retailers chip in a little of the cost to build them and would be an added bonus traffic to all of them!

The King of Prussia Mall, one of the largest malls in the US, has 6 350 KW EA chargers.

 

[Blue highway]

Confusingly Buc-ee's has nowhere to sit and eat outside. I've always wondered why, maybe it's a tax classification thing?

even more confusing to me, on a recent trip to the Midwest, my colleagues were excited to visit the new buc-ees..... ITS A GAS STATION?

 

[Logal727]

even more confusing to me, on a recent trip to the Midwest, my colleagues were excited to visit the new buc-ees..... ITS A GAS STATION?

oh sweet summer child it is not just a gas station

 

[DadzBoyz]

Different location types are ideal for different EVSE infrastructure. Some examples are:

Level 2 - 30-50 Amp, up to 12-55 miles added per hour
- Home
- Hotel
- Golf Course
- Shopping Mall
- Grocery Store
- Movie Theater
- Park
- Office/Work
- Restaurant
- Car Dealers (Service, Sales)

DCFC (DC Fast Charger) - 50+ Amps, 50 kW to 350 kW, 3-15 miles added per minute
- Near Interstates or High Speed Corridors
- Gas Stations
- Shopping Centers
- Restaurants
- Rural Areas (with fewer Level 2 Chargers)
- Urban Areas
- Restaurants
- Shopping Malls/Centers
- Gas Stations/EV Stations
- Car Dealers (Service, Sales, Public)

 

[minders]

even more confusing to me, on a recent trip to the Midwest, my colleagues were excited to visit the new buc-ees..... ITS A GAS STATION?

Agree with @Logal727 that it's so much more. Cleanest bathrooms than ANY gas station/travel station, tons of food options, smaller gift items, grills/smokers, etc. They really are a sight to see if you've never seen one since they normally have 100 or so gas pumps.

 

[Logal727]

Agree with @Logal727 that it's so much more. Cleanest bathrooms than ANY gas station/travel station, tons of food options, smaller gift items, grills/smokers, etc. They really are a sight to see if you've never seen one since they normally have 100 or so gas pumps.

Literally the best bathrooms, it's your own private toilet office

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