Charging rates compared by Car and Driver

[alangant]

In the Jul/Aug 2021 issue of Car and Driver, on p. 45 are graphs of charging behavior for 10 EVs, including the Mach E 4X. The charging behavior of the Mach E varies a LOT by state of charge: At 20% it is around 130 kW, while over 80% it drops to under 20 kW. When I get my GTPE, I hope to never need to charge above 80% at a public station. I have attached the page as both jpg and pdf. For all of us Mach E owners and fans, the Mach E was selected as their EV of the year; the rest of that issue has much more on the competition as well as a three page review of the Mach E.

Alan (future 2022 Mach E GTPE Rapid Red owner)

 

[breeves002]

It’s clear C&D used a crappy EA charger or they didn’t meet the proper conditions for max speed charging. I’ve observed 164kW on my car as it is a 450A max current limit not 150kW power limit.

Of course with the current curve it only does 450A for a few minutes before going down to about 350A before curving down even more. Then it hovers around 200A before going to 30-35A at 80%.

There’s a lot of data on DCFC so far and Ford likes perfect conditions for the fastest charging. We’ll see how the update coming “this winter” changes the curve.

 

[SnBGC]

I like the "How much time to add 150 miles" metric. That seems most appropriate.

If I am traveling a long distance, or deep into the mountains or where it is cold and snowing then the number that matters to me is the phone number to Avis or Enterprise.

 

[timbop]

That is correct: the Mach E charge curve peaks for the first minute or 2, and then drops to between 90 and 125kw until 80%, at which time it drops off a cliff. All well designed BEV's have a similar curve, although the Mach E is much more pronounced at 80%. Ford has done that intentionally to preserve battery life - they are overly conservative because they want to keep the battery as healthy as possible long term. Darren Palmer has talked about relaxing that curve some, but in real and practical terms an extended range Mach E does really well on road trips.

 

[voxel]

It’s clear C&D used a crappy EA charger or they didn’t meet the proper conditions for max speed charging. I’ve observed 164kW on my car as it is a 450A max current limit not 150kW power limit.

Don’t believe fake news… I mean EA chargers. They are buggy as sh1t. They would report 175 kW on the ID.4 for many people (now known bug).

https://insideevs.com/news/492727/ford-mustang-mache-fast-charging-analysis/

The charging curve is well documented. The above graph matches what I experienced yesterday at my first Mach-E EA charge (I’ve charged dozens of times with the ID.4). 73 kW from 60% to 80% then my rate plummeted to 9 kW after that. And more typical EA bugs… I stopped the session on the charger via button (screen showed successful completion) but it didn’t log the session on my account and the Mach-E recorded a charging fault at the end. So. Many. Bugs.

 

[breeves002]

Don’t believe fake news… I mean EA chargers. They are buggy as sh1t. They would report 175 kW on the ID.4 for many people (now known bug).

https://insideevs.com/news/492727/ford-mustang-mache-fast-charging-analysis/

The charging curve is well documented. The above graph matches what I experienced yesterday at my first Mach-E EA charge (I’ve charged dozens of times with the ID.4). 73 kW from 60% to 80% then my rate plummeted to 9 kW after that. And more typical EA bugs… I stopped the session on the charger via button (screen showed successful completion) but it didn’t log the session on my account and the Mach-E recorded a charging fault at the end. So. Many. Bugs.

The 164kW was accurate. I verified it was charging at 450A. Pack at 27% was 365V approx while charging. A*V=W. That inside EVs graph shows the same thing I have noticed.

Like I said it’s a current limit not power limit. The EA 350kW chargers are max 450A.

I’ve charged at about 15 different EA chargers. It’s rare that one actually will do past 135kW but I’ve had 4 of those that did the full 450A. Is it the car or the charger? Not sure. Otherwise the results are typical. 70-80kW from 50ish-80% roughly. Though I see 11-13kW after 80.

 

[MellowJohnny]

That is correct: the Mach E charge curve peaks for the first minute or 2, and then drops to between 90 and 125kw until 80%, at which time it drops off a cliff. All well designed BEV's have a similar curve, although the Mach E is much more pronounced at 80%. Ford has done that intentionally to preserve battery life - they are overly conservative because they want to keep the battery as healthy as possible long term. Darren Palmer has talked about relaxing that curve some, but in real and practical terms an extended range Mach E does really well on road trips.

The 80% cliff dive is being addressed in the ‘22 as well as an OTA update to all current models, moving it to 90% - so eventually this will be addressed.

I also really like the “real world vs the quoted EPA range” chart:

 

[timbop]

The 80% cliff dive is being addressed in the ‘22 as well as an OTA update to all current models, moving it to 90% - so eventually this will be addressed.

Yes, I've seen the Darren Palmer interview many times. He said they were looking into it and intend to improve the charging between 80% and 90% - which is not the same thing as maintaining ~80kw from 80% to 90%.

And that's the problem with perceptions: Ford says one thing, and it gets interpreted as something else. Then when Ford doesn't meet that misperception the internet cries bloody murder.

 

[RedStallion]

I don't know if the numbers are correct, but the metrics are all wrong. The relevant measurement is whether I can get enough charge for the next leg of the trip while taking a family and dogs to the restroom and getting a snack and a drink.

 

[Vulnox]

Yes, I've seen the Darren Palmer interview many times. He said they were looking into it and intend to improve the charging between 80% and 90% - which is not the same thing as maintaining ~80kw from 80% to 90%.

And that's the problem with perceptions: Ford says one thing, and it gets interpreted as something else. Then when Ford doesn't meet that misperception the internet cries bloody murder.

Yeah, there almost certainly will be improvements. But I wouldn't expect any significant changes to the curve for a few years. Ford will want 3-5 years of historical real-world battery degradation data before they start putting more stress on the battery. This is an area Tesla has a lead that you can't really overcome by just throwing money or R&D at the issue. Tesla has improved their charge curve OTA, but it is due to them having constant metrics being fed in over the years for how their cars are doing over a variety of scenarios. They get more comfortable with the battery health and push the OTA. Ford has some experience (from the FFE and Energi line of vehicles), but even then they are very different beasts than the huge pack in the MME.

So I expect they will improve things from 80-90%, and probably reclaim a few minutes there. But it still won't be worth charging beyond 80% for most trips. Even with Tesla you don't see most seasoned road trippers charging beyond 80% unless they won't make it to the next SC otherwise. I hope we see more time spent at 150KW or even 120-130 in that 50-80% range. That's where you could cut real time off the trip.

 

[voxel]

The 164kW was accurate. I verified it was charging at 450A. Pack at 27% was 365V approx while charging. A*V=W. That inside EVs graph shows the same thing I have noticed.

Like I said it’s a current limit not power limit. The EA 350kW chargers are max 450A.

I’ve charged at about 15 different EA chargers. It’s rare that one actually will do past 135kW but I’ve had 4 of those that did the full 450A. Is it the car or the charger? Not sure. Otherwise the results are typical. 70-80kW from 50ish-80% roughly. Though I see 11-13kW after 80.

You can get 350 kW with 800V. I've seen Taycans get 200+ at the stations with Signet chargers.

I experienced 125+ kW with the ID.4 multiple times. It has a linearly declining charge rate.

Given how Ioniq 5 and EV6 charge at 2C on average (almost 3C peak) - so with the Mach-E and the 99 kWh battery... that should be 200 kW but Ford is probably ultra conservative.

I still don't trust the EA reporting with all their glitches but Mach-E does allow a brief 150 kW spike at low SoC.

 

[MellowJohnny]

Yes, I've seen the Darren Palmer interview many times. He said they were looking into it and intend to improve the charging between 80% and 90% - which is not the same thing as maintaining ~80kw from 80% to 90%.

And that's the problem with perceptions: Ford says one thing, and it gets interpreted as something else. Then when Ford doesn't meet that misperception the internet cries bloody murder.

Not making any assumptions about *what* those changes will ultimately mean, just that it’s been mentioned by Ford. OP didn’t mention it so I thought I would, just in case others were unaware. I would assume (dangerous, I know) that changes equate to improvements. But we will see

 

[breeves002]

You can get 350 kW with 800V. I've seen Taycans get 200+ at the stations with Signet chargers.

I experienced 125+ kW with the ID.4 multiple times. It has a linearly declining charge rate.

Given how Ioniq 5 and EV6 charge at 2C on average (almost 3C peak) - so with the Mach-E and the 99 kWh battery... that should be 200 kW but Ford is probably ultra conservative.

I still don't trust the EA reporting with all their glitches but Mach-E does allow a brief 150 kW spike at low SoC.

You can't get over 450A with the current EA chargers, therefore you cannot get 200kW with the MME. Current x voltage = watts. So theoretical max for the MME at 80% SOC is 171kW (380v @ 80% assumed). With 800v systems you can literally double that power output with the same current...hence the 350kW max the EA charger says.

The problem is the EV6 has a 77.4kWh battery so average 2C is 150kW. At 700V that is 214A. Compared to the MME needing 450A at 335v (~35% SoC) to do the same amount of power into the battery pack. At 215A the MME pack could charge all the way to 80% and you see it charge to 80% regularly at or slightly over 200A when it hits the 80% cliff. Problem is since its half the voltage of an 800v system car it's half the power at the same current. 450A generates a ton of heat in the battery pack.

The EA stations seem to be spot on with my car when I read the car's output the A*V equals the displayed kW charge rate, but I understand not to always believe it if you see something weird.

If you watch battery pack temp while charging, how quickly it goes up at 150kW+ is kind of wild. 450A charging is a ton of current.

 

[voxel]

You can't get over 450A with the current EA chargers, therefore you cannot get 200kW with the MME. Current x voltage = watts. So theoretical max for the MME at 80% SOC is 171kW (380v @ 80% assumed). With 800v systems you can literally double that power output with the same current...hence the 350kW max the EA charger says.

The problem is the EV6 has a 77.4kWh battery so average 2C is 150kW. At 700V that is 214A. Compared to the MME needing 450A at 335v (~35% SoC) to do the same amount of power into the battery pack. At 215A the MME pack could charge all the way to 80% and you see it charge to 80% regularly at or slightly over 200A when it hits the 80% cliff. Problem is since its half the voltage of an 800v system car it's half the power at the same current. 450A generates a ton of heat in the battery pack.

The EA stations seem to be spot on with my car when I read the car's output the A*V equals the displayed kW charge rate, but I understand not to always believe it if you see something weird.

If you watch battery pack temp while charging, how quickly it goes up at 150kW+ is kind of wild. 450A charging is a ton of current.

With the ID.4, it sounded like a leaf blower on full blast when it started DC charging. It actively tries to keep the battery temps below 33C according to the research article that put an ID.3 and Model 3 on a dunk and measured discharge rates and battery temps. I didn’t hear my Mach-E trigger the same fans but it also was only charging around 73 kW. My Tesla Model Y was also silent during charging,

EV6 and Ioniq 5 actually start at 3C charging. I saw Bjorn’s video with rates 230 kW - something like 740v at 300A.

 

[AZBill]

You can't get over 450A with the current EA chargers, therefore you cannot get 200kW with the MME. Current x voltage = watts. So theoretical max for the MME at 80% SOC is 171kW (380v @ 80% assumed). With 800v systems you can literally double that power output with the same current...hence the 350kW max the EA charger says.

The problem is the EV6 has a 77.4kWh battery so average 2C is 150kW. At 700V that is 214A. Compared to the MME needing 450A at 335v (~35% SoC) to do the same amount of power into the battery pack. At 215A the MME pack could charge all the way to 80% and you see it charge to 80% regularly at or slightly over 200A when it hits the 80% cliff. Problem is since its half the voltage of an 800v system car it's half the power at the same current. 450A generates a ton of heat in the battery pack.

The EA stations seem to be spot on with my car when I read the car's output the A*V equals the displayed kW charge rate, but I understand not to always believe it if you see something weird.

If you watch battery pack temp while charging, how quickly it goes up at 150kW+ is kind of wild. 450A charging is a ton of current.

The EA Signet chargers provide 500A, it is the ABB chargers that are limited to lower values.

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