nor3bo

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jacques
Joined
Nov 19, 2021
Threads
4
Messages
77
Reaction score
37
Location
BC, Canada
Vehicles
Mach-E Prem 4X
Country flag
" Avoid Excessive Aggressive Driving EVs have impressive torque capabilities and that’s worth enjoying. But a pattern of aggressive driving can increase wear and tear on EV powertrains. Over the long term, this may impact high-voltage battery efficiency and longevity. Help owners understand that EV high-voltage battery health depends on their balanced driving habits. "

Now that's disappointing :p
 

SashaLondon

Well-Known Member
First Name
Sasha
Joined
Sep 11, 2020
Threads
29
Messages
1,259
Reaction score
1,333
Location
London
Vehicles
MME AWD SR
Country flag
So I have been driving the car between 20% - 80% as recommended. So now I should use 20% - 90% as my standard driving range?
Also I do not have any updated charge curves via software updates.
 

RWG

Active Member
First Name
Randal
Joined
Jan 16, 2022
Threads
0
Messages
34
Reaction score
59
Location
Chaska Minnesota
Vehicles
2021 Mach E
Occupation
Semi retired
The pdf document is very informative. Thanks, I find this Forum much more useful/informative than my dealer or Ford Detroit. I have spoken to both, many times, and in many ways they are collectively clueless.

After owning our MMe for now 3 weeks, in the frozen Tundra of Minnesota, with sub - zero temps, constantly, we really don't have any negative experiences, other than Range Envy. However, being a GearHead and a Nerd, my conclusion is our MMe is nothing more than a "laptop with wheels, that looks like a car". As such it has all of the risks and challenges of a laptop, compounded by the FordPass app. which adds layers of risk, and performance (connectivity) challenges.

Ford is a 100 year old car company, that makes good mechanical stuff, but now it has pivoted to a maker of "laptops on wheels", with remote access control ( FordPass) and they have their hands full. I am resolved to the fact it is going to take some time for them to catch up, i.e. everyday is a new challenge that they did not necessarily plan for and to make matters worse, the Ford IT support infrastructure is old, outdated, and it shows.

I have concluded, that I will not own this thing longer than 24 to 36 months, because imagine the technology advancements available to this "laptop on wheels" in that timeframe. Within 24 months I predict all EVs will be boasting/promoting ranges of 500 miles or more and having this vehicle will be like owning an old laptop, with 4 gig of RAM and running Windows 7. Also, hopefully Ford will have upgraded their legacy IT infrastructure. If not, my next EV will not be a Ford, it will be a brand that is relevant.
 


phidauex

Well-Known Member
First Name
Sam
Joined
Dec 8, 2020
Threads
13
Messages
741
Reaction score
1,394
Location
Colorado
Vehicles
2021 MachE 4EX, 2006 Prius, 1997 Tacoma
Occupation
Renewable Energy Engineer
Country flag
Despite a few inconsistencies in the technical writing, this seems to give pretty good background information, and reasonable recommendations to owners.

I think most of the confusion people have stems from a combination of unfamiliarity with batteries (which will change over time) and the simple fact that all of these recommendations are an attempt to take a very wide grey area and put some numbers to it to make things easier for people. Remember that car people have been arguing for many decades about whether to change oil at 3000 miles, 5000 miles, 10000 miles, whatever.

A manufacturer will say, "change your oil at 8k miles" and all of a sudden people will show up to argue that they always do 5k, or they always push to 10k, all with anecdotes supporting their position. People will ask if their warranty is void because they went to 8,100 miles, etc. Then someone will bring up oil testing and people will ask if you have to be a chemical engineer just to own a car... All the same conversations we have here about batteries.

So do your best, follow the recommendations in broad strokes, don't sweat the details, and don't expect any more precise of an answer than you've already been given.
 

Ride_the_lightning

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2021
Threads
3
Messages
298
Reaction score
492
Location
Midwest
Vehicles
Mach E Premium SR AWD
Occupation
Engineer
Country flag
The pdf document is very informative. Thanks, I find this Forum much more useful/informative than my dealer or Ford Detroit. I have spoken to both, many times, and in many ways they are collectively clueless.

After owning our MMe for now 3 weeks, in the frozen Tundra of Minnesota, with sub - zero temps, constantly, we really don't have any negative experiences, other than Range Envy. However, being a GearHead and a Nerd, my conclusion is our MMe is nothing more than a "laptop with wheels, that looks like a car". As such it has all of the risks and challenges of a laptop, compounded by the FordPass app. which adds layers of risk, and performance (connectivity) challenges.

Ford is a 100 year old car company, that makes good mechanical stuff, but now it has pivoted to a maker of "laptops on wheels", with remote access control ( FordPass) and they have their hands full. I am resolved to the fact it is going to take some time for them to catch up, i.e. everyday is a new challenge that they did not necessarily plan for and to make matters worse, the Ford IT support infrastructure is old, outdated, and it shows.

I have concluded, that I will not own this thing longer than 24 to 36 months, because imagine the technology advancements available to this "laptop on wheels" in that timeframe. Within 24 months I predict all EVs will be boasting/promoting ranges of 500 miles or more and having this vehicle will be like owning an old laptop, with 4 gig of RAM and running Windows 7. Also, hopefully Ford will have upgraded their legacy IT infrastructure. If not, my next EV will not be a Ford, it will be a brand that is relevant.
With respect, the app is about the only thing that makes this remotely like a laptop. Your laptop battery life has not increased because the battery got significantly better, it did so because chips now draw less power. The laws of physics in vehicles do not allow for doubling or tripling of efficiency in 24 months. You either have to decrease weight by a LOT, increase aerodynamics by a lot, or decrease waste (I.e heating the cabin).

New battery technology will surely improve EVs but anyone holding out for Moore’s law style time frames for range improvements is kidding themselves.

The FordPass app is also hardly an integral part to owning this car. I agree it’s not the best, but it remote starts reasonably well and scheduled charging reasonably well. What else do I really need it to do?
 

Cabel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2021
Threads
5
Messages
113
Reaction score
94
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
2021 Mach-e GT PE
Occupation
IT Engineer, aviator, gearhead, tinkerer, putterer, wife pesterer.
Country flag
dcfast.JPG
 

ECHARGD

Member
First Name
ECHARGD
Joined
Dec 31, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
17
Reaction score
5
Location
USA
Vehicles
MME4X
What is confusing to me is the contradiction of statements to charge it everyday, but charging it and topping it off everyday is not recommended for battery life. I came here to learn exactly what I should do for cold weather overnight and am presented with conflicting info from Ford themselves. Car is great. Ford's communication and consumer software...not so much.
 

Jiji

Well-Known Member
First Name
Rick
Joined
Jul 26, 2021
Threads
11
Messages
173
Reaction score
241
Location
Finger Lakes
Vehicles
2022 Mustang Mach-E GT
Country flag
Are you trying to be funny? There is a link in the original post.
Not the least. There is no link that I have seen in the original post but there is an attachment and it is made nearly unreadable by the watermarking. I am no expert but seems weird to use a forum watermark on a document that Ford created.
 

67 Stang Convertible

Well-Known Member
First Name
Rich
Joined
Jan 27, 2021
Threads
22
Messages
591
Reaction score
658
Location
Georgia, USA
Vehicles
1967 Mustang, 2013 Kia Optima, 2018 Kia Sportage
Occupation
Physician
Country flag
What is confusing to me is the contradiction of statements to charge it everyday, but charging it and topping it off everyday is not recommended for battery life. I came here to learn exactly what I should do for cold weather overnight and am presented with conflicting info from Ford themselves. Car is great. Ford's communication and consumer software...not so much.
Agreed, I started a thread several months back asking is it better to charge daily or when needed; as I don't charge everyday. My initial rational was the battery only has so many cycles per lifetime from reading about evs. But I will say the majority of responses here said it did not really matter and that most people responded in the forum that they charge daily. **And here Ford does seem to contradict themselves in this regard. That being said I still believe for Long Term Battery Management the less times charged the better. I'm sticking with periodic charging.

Of course #Ford feel free to jump in and clarify.
 

Cabel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2021
Threads
5
Messages
113
Reaction score
94
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
2021 Mach-e GT PE
Occupation
IT Engineer, aviator, gearhead, tinkerer, putterer, wife pesterer.
Country flag
What other manufacturers say is probably typical for all Li-Ion powered EVs. This is an article from https://www.motortrend.com/news/ev-lithium-ion-battery-life-tips-tricks-advice/


frankmarkus
Mar 13, 2020
Our lives are increasingly filled with battery-powered devices, most of which now use lithium-ion batteries, including cell phones, laptops, power tools, and—most pertinent for us—in electric vehicles. Many of us have experienced some level of battery degradation, then, at least in smartphones. But electric cars are a bit more expensive, and losses in capacity or a battery's ability to hold a charge can have noticeable impacts on your driving behavior. Imagine your gas-powered car's fuel tank shrinking over time!


So, what are EV customers to do? Research by the University of Michigan into ways consumers can extend lithium-ion battery life (in cars, phones, and beyond) was recently published in the Journal of Energy Storage, and it holds a few tips. The research was supported by the Responsible Battery Coalition, an association of companies (including Ford and Honda), academics, and organizations committed to the responsible management of batteries now and in the future to minimize the impact our increasingly battery-powered lifestyles have on the planet. In addition to academic research into ways to make batteries last longer, the team studied available battery use and charging recommendations found in user manuals from manufacturers including BMW, Chevrolet, Ford, Fiat, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, and Tesla.

Keep reading past the list for more on how to extend their battery lives, as well as key background information on the science behind these energy storage devices.
6 Ways to Extend EV Battery Life

  1. Minimize exposure to high temperatures, in storage and use—Park your EV in the shade whenever possible or plug in so that the battery's thermal management system can function using grid power.
  2. Minimize exposure to low temperatures—Here again, the danger is mostly parking unplugged in extreme low temperatures. If you can plug in, the battery's thermal management system can keep the battery comfy. Some EVs automatically run the thermal management system even unplugged, until capacity drops to 15 percent, after which things get ugly.
  3. Minimize time spent at 100 percent state of charge—Try to resist the urge to plug in all night every night. If your daily travels consume 30 percent of the battery, using a middle-30-percent (like from 70 to 40 percent) is better for the battery than always using the top 30 percent. Smart chargers will eventually integrate with your calendar to anticipate daily driving needs and tailor charging to suit.
  4. Minimize time spent at 0 percent state of charge—Battery management systems typically shut an EV off well before reaching 0 percent. The bigger danger is leaving a vehicle unplugged for so long that it self-discharges to zero and stays there for a prolonged period.
  5. Avoid using fast charging—Automakers know that one of the keys to mass EV adoption is the ability to charge as quickly as filling a gas tank, so they're timid about warning against high-voltage DC charging. And indeed it's fine for recharging during infrequent long trips—or for when a surprise appointment depletes your strategic 70-percent overnight charge. Don't make it a habit.
  6. Avoid discharging more quickly than is needed—It's tough to resist those Ludicrous Tesla launches, and they're relatively harmless when enjoyed occasionally when demoing your car to a prospective EV convert. Just know that each one hastens the ultimate demise of your vehicle's battery by some amount.
 

timbop

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Jan 3, 2020
Threads
57
Messages
5,825
Reaction score
11,861
Location
New Jersey
Vehicles
2021 Mach-E (CA RT1), 2022 Lincoln Corsair PHEV
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
The curious part of this for both cold and hot weather is that statement about not charging the 12V. Reads like the car is always running the thermal management system.

1643145020900.png
I think it is RESERVING power for the BMS to cool/warm the battery and not conditioning all the time

I love this.. they assume that people will keep these cars long term. Look I absolutely love my car, but in a few years when 500 mile range cars come out, why would I stick with the car I have now, the technology will have changed so much. Why bother?
Urban dwellers rely on DCFC because we can't exactly plug in to my apartment Using DCFC is more common than they would like to think.
They are informing those who have a choice to choose slower AC charging over DCFC. If you don't have the option to slow AC charge, they are informing you of the consequences. EVERY BEV is affected the same way because the battery chemistries/designs are all very similar and thus are susceptible to the same pitfalls. Ford is simply telling you up front.

So I have been driving the car between 20% - 80% as recommended. So now I should use 20% - 90% as my standard driving range?
Also I do not have any updated charge curves via software updates.
90% is the recommended MAXIMUM; charging to 80% is perfectly fine unless it means you drain down to 15% or lower as a consequence (such as during your daily commute).

I have concluded, that I will not own this thing longer than 24 to 36 months, because imagine the technology advancements available to this "laptop on wheels" in that timeframe. Within 24 months I predict all EVs will be boasting/promoting ranges of 500 miles or more and having this vehicle will be like owning an old laptop, with 4 gig of RAM and running Windows 7. Also, hopefully Ford will have upgraded their legacy IT infrastructure. If not, my next EV will not be a Ford, it will be a brand that is relevant.
Battery technology is not going to change much in 2-3 years, and just like you could upgrade that windows 7 OS to windows 10 the car will get added features over time. The arrival in mass production of the next breakthrough in battery chemistry is further away than 2 or 3 years, so incremental improvements in efficiency and stuffing a bigger battery on board are the only ways to improve range. The aerodynamics of the Lucid Air gives it a 15% to 20% boost of the Mach-E's mi/kwh efficiency, which combined with the 25% bigger battery gives it a 500 mile range vs 300 of the ER Mach E. That 25% bigger battery adds a lot of cost.

With respect, the app is about the only thing that makes this remotely like a laptop. Your laptop battery life has not increased because the battery got significantly better, it did so because chips now draw less power. The laws of physics in vehicles do not allow for doubling or tripling of efficiency in 24 months. You either have to decrease weight by a LOT, increase aerodynamics by a lot, or decrease waste (I.e heating the cabin).

New battery technology will surely improve EVs but anyone holding out for Moore’s law style time frames for range improvements is kidding themselves.

The FordPass app is also hardly an integral part to owning this car. I agree it’s not the best, but it remote starts reasonably well and scheduled charging reasonably well. What else do I really need it to do?
Perfectly stated.

What is confusing to me is the contradiction of statements to charge it everyday, but charging it and topping it off everyday is not recommended for battery life. I came here to learn exactly what I should do for cold weather overnight and am presented with conflicting info from Ford themselves. Car is great. Ford's communication and consumer software...not so much.
Agreed, I started a thread several months back asking is it better to charge daily or when needed; as I don't charge everyday. My initial rational was the battery only has so many cycles per lifetime from reading about evs. But I will say the majority of responses here said it did not really matter and that most people responded in the forum that they charge daily. **And here Ford does seem to contradict themselves in this regard. That being said I still believe for Long Term Battery Management the less times charged the better. I'm sticking with periodic charging.

Of course #Ford feel free to jump in and clarify.
When they refer to "don't top off every day" they mean don't charge it to 100% everyday, as is explained in more detail later in the document. The design of Li-ion batteries is such that frequently discharging very low or charging very high will cause damage to the battery. Keeping the state of charge in the middle is just fine, and in particular in very cold or hot weather they want you to plug in as much as possible so that the BMS can kick in using grid power rather than the battery.

The upshot is that in cold/hot weather it is better to keep the car plugged in (and thus constantly charging to the configured max) so the BMS can protect the battery instead of exercising the battery through its full range - as long as you limit the max to 90% or less. Since I am working from home and drive very little I have my max set to 80%; the lowest I've ever let my battery get is 19% and that only ever happened once and I plugged in immediately.
 
Last edited:

oliverames

Well-Known Member
First Name
Oliver
Joined
Aug 18, 2021
Threads
2
Messages
69
Reaction score
37
Location
Vermont, United States
Vehicles
Mach-E Select Dual Motor Standard Range
Country flag
Keeping the state of charge in the middle is just fine, and in particular in very cold or hot weather they want you to plug in as much as possible so that the BMS can kick in using grid power rather than the battery.
Do you know if the BMS will kick in if it is cold and the car isn't plugged in? Or will it only run the BMS if the car is plugged in?

 

 
Top