How long before Tesla will have to change?

[PSaulet]

How many here used a Tesla before comparing, how many here were driving other electric models including the MMe.
To have tried both and acquired a TM3 because Ford did not save deliver, it is because Tesla still has a great technological advance, effeiscience and intuitiveness.
The look remains subjective, finally let's look at the price / power ratio offered, here again Tesla is ahead.
Maybe history will catch up with them but today they know more and more how to make cars, the supercharger network is not shared here in Europe for a while and honestly a Model S is far from ugly. and badly finished.
It will still be necessary to remember that Elon will have opened a way ....
It is also difficult to judge the reliability of new models, I take for example the problems of VAG, the worldwide recall of all Porsche .....

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[Ride_the_lightning]

How many here used a Tesla before comparing, how many here were driving other electric models including the MMe.
To have tried both and acquired a TM3 because Ford did not save deliver, it is because Tesla still has a great technological advance, effeiscience and intuitiveness.
The look remains subjective, finally let's look at the price / power ratio offered, here again Tesla is ahead.
Maybe history will catch up with them but today they know more and more how to make cars, the supercharger network is not shared here in Europe for a while and honestly a Model S is far from ugly. and badly finished.
It will still be necessary to remember that Elon will have opened a way ....
It is also difficult to judge the reliability of new models, I take for example the problems of VAG, the worldwide recall of all Porsche .....

Having owned a TM3, I wouldn’t say they know more and more how to make cars. They are fantastic at designing cars, and making amazing prototypes. They (Musk) seems too bored with the things needed to scale and run a modern manufacturing operation, and too stubborn to fully delicate it to somebody else. They also cut costs on anything that isn’t related to speed generating memes.

- the doors on my TM3 felt like they would fall apart every time I closed them. Most similar comparison was my 1999 base model Honda Civic with manual roll down windows.

- previously mentioned paint peeling off after a car wash

- rattles in multiple places

- trunk not aligned properly

That being said, I do miss it. I wanted to love it. It was fun to drive, I did mostly love the interior save for the lack of windshield wiper stalk, the interface was great, charging worked great. Tesla nailed the EV specific tech, they failed miserably on the basic car stuff.

I’m really hoping I like the MME when I get it in 6 months or so. I did enjoy the short test drive I did this week.

 

[ARK]

I think Tesla has made some very desirable products and their future is at this point highly secure. Their market share will for sure decrease because they haven’t had much competition but I think their sales will continue to boom as the EV market pie gets much larger.

I don’t think Tesla is helpless to improve things like build quality, paint, etc. I think they just haven’t had much of an incentive to do so because they can’t make their vehicles fast enough - they are having absolutely no problem in moving them.

But just as the Mach-E only exists in 2021 pretty much because of what Tesla has shown is possible with EVs over the last decade, once other automakers start introducing serious EVs, I think Tesla will markedly improve on the things they are currently lacking on. The Mach-E is a start, the E-Tron, Taycan, ID.4 are some others.

Basically, things like quality control cost money and make the average item produced, whether it is a car or something else, more expensive to the manufacturer. Why should they do it so long as there are three people happy to overlook those flaws for every buyer who wants out because of them. With more competition and more choices for consumers, that will for sure start to change.

 

[Jimrpa]

People who keep claiming Tesla is the Apple of EVs have no idea what a false equivalency that is. There is no way Apple would ever design, manufacture, or ship a product like a Tesla. It goes against every precept of Apple. The vehicles are objectively unattractive. They’re poorly designed and badly manufactured. For all the complaints people make about apple and proprietary connectors, Apple not only follows industry standards, they help develop them (notice how your Apple gear works well on WiFi and Bluetooth, and your Apple TV just plugs in and works with your TV and sound system). The 30 pin dock connector and then the lightning connector were developed because there wasn’t anything else. Now that USB C is available, Apple is using it. Don’t see Tesla making a move to J-1772. Tesla’s success has been because they’ve been the only “viable” player in what, up until now, has been a niche market. EVs are now moving from interesting toys for the wealthy to practical alternatives for real people.

 

[Scrannel]

GM is SHOOTING for one million EVs on the road by 2025. Tesla will be up to about 5 - 8 million by then. And what happens when the Tesla "cheapie" (M2) hits the market? What people do not seem to grasp is, that legacy factories are a liability -- an EV isn't just an ICE car with batteries and an electric motor. And, how much work is involved in sorting the inadequate chargers all the others are using? Ford & VW have admitted their only competition is Tesla. (As has Audi and Mercedes, BTW). The Model 3 is now the 16th best selling car -- and that's of ALL cars -- in the world.

This is simple: if GM makes the absolutely best selling EV on the planet... and they can only make a million by 2025 (their goal)... who cares?

 

[trutolife27]

How many here used a Tesla before comparing, how many here were driving other electric models including the MMe.
To have tried both and acquired a TM3 because Ford did not save deliver, it is because Tesla still has a great technological advance, effeiscience and intuitiveness.
The look remains subjective, finally let's look at the price / power ratio offered, here again Tesla is ahead.
Maybe history will catch up with them but today they know more and more how to make cars, the supercharger network is not shared here in Europe for a while and honestly a Model S is far from ugly. and badly finished.
It will still be necessary to remember that Elon will have opened a way ....
It is also difficult to judge the reliability of new models, I take for example the problems of VAG, the worldwide recall of all Porsche .....

Well, the price of tesla is higher here in North America. And it's a lot now. Tesla Model Y long-range with red paint, better wheels, and white interior 58,000 with 2.49% interest rate and no 7,500 credit.

Mache comes in way cheaper than that. Power They all can make a car that goes 0 to 60 in 2 seconds not like it amazing. ford made one that is 1400hp. It's about practical and selling.

Supercharging yes they have a lead on that. Not charging speed but the number of chargers. That is ending soon also. Tech advantage just is not there. Times have caught up. Ford and others are moving on to solid state batteries. Like Elon again said everyone caught up faster than he thought.

 

[trutolife27]

Yep, Tesla is about to go through some things as the avalanche of EVs from all over comes down the mountain. They started out as innovators but the competition is catching and in some areas passing them already. I know this has been covered before but here are just a few that stick out to me:

1. A decade had gone by since the S hit the road and production quality is still abysmal. Their failure to embrace Kaizen/Continuous Improvement has really affected their manufacturing processes. That’s the Elon influence of crapping on anything the legacy automakers do, even Toyota. Building cars in the parking lot under tents to meet quotas was the ultimate middle finger to the Quality Team at Tesla.
2. The “minimalist” interior is merely a cost and weight savings exercise taken to the extreme. Yes, you can save a good bit of $$$ and 100-200 pounds doing it, but, how many buyers do you lose? Not many, when the only alternatives are Bolts and Leafs, but when Audi, BMW, Kia, Hyundai, Volvo, Ford et al. come at you with real interiors with gauges and buttons that novelty won’t play any more.
3. Range. Yes, Tesla’s big advantage (Superchargers notwithstanding), or so many thought. Tesla has played fast and loose with their EPA ratings and now that fact is being exposed to a greater degree than ever. The Edmunds EV range test was very damning and Tesla’s response about a buffer bordered on non-sense. Their cars just don’t meet EPA numbers in controlled testing. As more legacy makers introduce EVs that beat the EPA numbers, Tesla will have to re-rate or improve.
4. The no dealership model. Nice in theory. However, one of a dealership’s functions is to advocate for their customer in situations where the maker isn’t cooperating. When there is no dealer you are at the mercy of the maker. Many Tesla owners have found this out the hard way with warranty denials, parts shortages and general inability to receive timely service/fixes. Are all dealers great advocates? Of course not, but a choice is better than none.
5. Diminishing Carbon Credits. Bigger deal than many realize. They have relied greatly on the credits until very recently and will struggle to show profits as they totally disappear. When even Dodge announces an EV muscle car and EV Ram truck coming for ‘24, you are in serious trouble.

That is my sorta Top 5.

all of this is point on.

Yes, they cut corners as much as they can for aero and weight. advantages for them are gone.

 

[blue92lx]

I'm not one to be like "oh here come the fanboys" but really look at the comments of the Tesla people here right now. It's like "let's turn our heads at reality and what's happening right in front of our faces".

I'd like to see one realistic comment/argument put up by a Tesla backer here. Saying things like Tesla will have 5-8 million cars by 2025 what about you?

Ok let's see the numbers in 2030 and see where we're at when everyone has had the same amount of time to produce their EVs and also produce them when parts are actually available.

Preorders for all of these companies are showing how much people are super happy Tesla isn't the only one in the market now. Tides are turning and you can just ignore the storm coming and act like lightning didn't just strike you in the ass when it gets here.

Also, you can't really compare Tesla's numbers to say Ford's EV numbers. Tesla only makes EVs, Ford makes everything. A more apt comparison would be how many cars and trucks did Ford sell as a total than Tesla?

Because the reality is once companies like Ford are all EV that's how you'll be comparing it. You can't compare all of Tesla's vehicles vs the production rate of one offering that Ford is selling right now. So good luck with that analogy because it's going to seriously bite you in the ass in not too long of a time.

 

[timbop]

What people do not seem to grasp is, that legacy factories are a liability

I think you're confusing the production steps at the factory with the design and engineering. Plants are retooled all the time, which can involve completely changing the line. The cautitlan plant was making fiestas I believe, and in the span of 4 or 5 months during a pandemic they retooled and started making Mach E's.

I think you are vastly under-appreciating how similar assembling an EV is in so many respects to an ICE.

 

[blue92lx]

And just to piggy back off my own reply, due to the aspect right now that it's Tesla vs everyone (kudos to Elon for making it this way with his massive success and bringing the world forward), you also have to look at it as in 5 years how many EVs will there be compared to Tesla. Because as a company that's how Tesla needs to look at it. Right now they have a lock on the EV market across the board with the only realistically attractive option until about 2021. So a realistic mentality, as a company owner needing to make my numbers, is how many other EVs total are there in 2025 than Tesla.

 

[Billyk24]

Yep, Tesla is about to go through some things as the avalanche of EVs from all over comes down the mountain. They started out as innovators but the competition is catching and in some areas passing them already. I know this has been covered before but here are just a few that stick out to me:

1. A decade had gone by since the S hit the road and production quality is still abysmal. Their failure to embrace Kaizen/Continuous Improvement has really affected their manufacturing processes. That’s the Elon influence of crapping on anything the legacy automakers do, even Toyota. Building cars in the parking lot under tents to meet quotas was the ultimate middle finger to the Quality Team at Tesla.
2. The “minimalist” interior is merely a cost and weight savings exercise taken to the extreme. Yes, you can save a good bit of $$$ and 100-200 pounds doing it, but, how many buyers do you lose? Not many, when the only alternatives are Bolts and Leafs, but when Audi, BMW, Kia, Hyundai, Volvo, Ford et al. come at you with real interiors with gauges and buttons that novelty won’t play any more.
3. Range. Yes, Tesla’s big advantage (Superchargers notwithstanding), or so many thought. Tesla has played fast and loose with their EPA ratings and now that fact is being exposed to a greater degree than ever. The Edmunds EV range test was very damning and Tesla’s response about a buffer bordered on non-sense. Their cars just don’t meet EPA numbers in controlled testing. As more legacy makers introduce EVs that beat the EPA numbers, Tesla will have to re-rate or improve.
4. The no dealership model. Nice in theory. However, one of a dealership’s functions is to advocate for their customer in situations where the maker isn’t cooperating. When there is no dealer you are at the mercy of the maker. Many Tesla owners have found this out the hard way with warranty denials, parts shortages and general inability to receive timely service/fixes. Are all dealers great advocates? Of course not, but a choice is better than none.
5. Diminishing Carbon Credits. Bigger deal than many realize. They have relied greatly on the credits until very recently and will struggle to show profits as they totally disappear. When even Dodge announces an EV muscle car and EV Ram truck coming for ‘24, you are in serious trouble.

That is my sorta Top 5.

Tesla has had long standing cash cow in which they promote FSD "soon", charge thousands (now 10K?) upfront but fail to move it out of level 2 of autonomic driving as their own lawyers admitted earlier this year. Worse, some Tesla vehicles have had two owners who paid in full for FSD and never received anything for this. This cash cow for the company helps their bottom line. Will it continue to so in the future or will a class action lawsuit develop over this fraud?

 

[timbop]

Here's an excerpt of a CNBC article from late 2019, but as its the most recent non-pandemic year it will suffice for sake of argument. Global cars sales were down to only 77 million vehicles.

There is no way in hell Tesla can build more than a few million vehicles a year by 2030 without a massive spending spree on construction or acquisitions. So either people will stop buying cars or they are going to be buying a lot of non-tesla cars - and a significant number of those will be BEVs.

 

[trutolife27]

100% not ready and total fraud

 

[Stang68]

I'm just sitting around watching reviews of new EVs coming out and I just don't know how Tesla will keep it's market share with all of these awesome EVs coming out. Yes it'll take a while for Tesla to start to lose on a significant level, especially with the new vehicles not out yet combined with parts shortages across the board, but I just cannot imagine even looking at a Tesla anymore (even though for me that thought has been long gone for at least a year).

Ioniq 5 has some really awesome ideas to it, growing up in the 80s I love the future retro look. The recliner seats with extendable leg supports. It charges at 800v. It looks small but actually has a lot of storage space in the cabin. Fully adjustable rear seats with a crazy amount of room in the back to sit. One thing that makes sense is removing the center console (at least on bottom) and having a full open area to put your feet. Entire center console moves front and back.

Nissan Ariya has a nice exterior design, the interior is actually an interesting mix of the Tesla dash with somewhat hidden AC vents, really nice dual screen setup, same as the ioniq 5 a full flat front area for your feet to stretch out and a moveable center console. More than enough storage space as well and rear seat area. Seems to have really nice interior quality (at least in videos so far). I also really like the integrated touch controls of the AC in the faux wood. It reminds me of the touch controls on my Fusion Titanium that I really like. It's really smooth and sleek, especially on the Ariya. I feel like Nissan is already taking the Tesla design and making it way better, way nicer. This is what Tesla needs to start looking at, because Nissan is showing a better way for Tesla to do their own design.

Volvo recharge xc40. I mean I don't even need to start talking about the level of quality of a Volvo to a Tesla. The difference is absurd.

VW ID.4 which is more of a get around town vehicle in comparison from the reviews Ive seen, but still taking market share. Ive seen one in person and it looks good, just not a performance oriented vehicle and based primarily around a traditional driving experience and not a future tech EV.

Obviously Mustang Mach E which we all know and love here, so I don't think I need to talk about the features. I think the Mach E is the only one in the segment with equal 0-60 to all of the Model Y models.

All of these vehicles are in the same price range, all CUV size except the Model Y which is really a full SUV size (at least from the rear exterior with the large flaired rear fenders).

All have better styling exterior and interior wise. This is subjective of course, but how many more Tesla's with the same exact design can you really look at before you're over it? I can literally count 10-15 Tesla's on my Starbucks route, all look exactly the same no matter what year or model they are.

How long can Tesla be the "apple" of EVs that literally never changes anything about how it looks, functions, lower quality of construction, etc., When all of the big players are coming out which will be better put together, better ideas, different designs to choose from, etc. It's now going to be Tesla vs the world and you just can't compete when its you versus everyone else.

They're coming for that Tesla market and if Tesla doesn't make a single change I just wonder how much interest people will keep in it once we start seeing all of these other vehicles on the road next to the Teslas at stop lights.

I've said it before and the Tesla charging network won't be an excuse forever, especially with all of these new vehicles using a unified network. Also in the EU Tesla's don't have their charging network there either since it's standardized.

Anyway, just kind of bored tonight and was thinking about all of that while watching these videos of what's coming out in the next year.

Major thing that will keep Tesla in the game… buying a Tesla is “cool”.

Then again, the Mach E is pretty fucking cool, too. Teslas are now basically anonymous.

 

[blue92lx]

Major thing that will keep Tesla in the game… buying a Tesla is “cool”.

Then again, the Mach E is pretty fucking cool, too. Teslas are now basically anonymous.

Yeah but, which Tesla is cool? They all look the same and they all look the same as they have since the beginning. Lol. In a more serious note though, how cool will they look when people also like 'new'. And along with new comes more current designs, more designs to choose from which suits multiple buyers, and big manufacturers also know they have to refresh their vehicles every few years because people like new.

I'm very curious how cool Tesla's will be when you see one and it's like ok so there's a Tesla, could be 5 years old, might be new. also its a car but looks like the SUV and Crossover. Oh look at the nice Volvo XC40 next to it, or Nissan Ariya, or ioniq 5, and then you look back and it's like oh and the Tesla next it.

Oh and btw the new car they're developing? Literally the same exact design they have now and it's just smaller.

Even on a brand new car they couldn't be bothered to make a new design, gtfo of here with that BS. It would've been the perfect time for them to introduce a new style that they could have piggy backed their other models off of, but no they went with the same old 8 year old design or however old it is now. I honestly can't be bothered to even take a minute to research their cars.

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