Insight into why the Mach-E battery charge strategy is so conservative

[DBC]

I also know there are lots of people and lots of reviews about how bad the seats and the interior are and were. I was actually seriously considering a bolt until the Mach E came out, but I will be honest, I did not like the styling, or the feel of the car. I've never actually driven a bolt, but I have been driving the Mach E in 1P mode and found the regen and braking excellent.

Now then, does it have it's place? Absolutely, and I am glad it is there. The more BEV's the better. But even with this refresh, I think GM gave up on the platform and didn't advance it.

The seats sucked. No question about that, though the new ones are supposedly OK.

Keep in mind that the Bolt platform was just a stopgap - a reworked ICE platform -- which was only ever going to be used until the actual BEV platform showed up. The Lyriq and the Hummer are the first two vehicles that will be built on that platform. The platform is super versatile, capable of being used for everything from sub-compacts to large SUVs. And the battery packs can be stacked either vertically or horizontally, can range from 70 kWh to 200 kWh, and in some configurations can be charged at 800v.

So I agree with everything you've said about the deficiencies as well as the fact that the MME is in a different class altogether. I just disagree that it's disappointing since it was planned that way.

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[Kamuelaflyer]

Wow, ok.

Don’t worry about that answer Tim, his dog ate most of his answer.

A brand new 2022 model with the same DC charging (I'm not going to even refer to it euphemistically as "fast") as their debut 2017 model is just setting them up for failure

Yes. GM had basically said don’t buy this if you plan to travel.

Both of you are missing a very important point. The 2022 model was developed for a market where 50 kWh chargers are the ultimate in DCFC and where a long trip is 200 miles. Total. Hawaii!

 

[RonTCat]

I agree. There's no room for GM hate. GM has done well with the Volt and Bolt. However, they haven't made a serious move beyond that except for a couple of really high-end vehicles and long-term promises. Ford has two BEVs for mass market (Mach E, Transit) and another coming next year (F-150). I think we will see lots of that sort of leap-frogging among companies for the next few years.

GM is on the right path.

The only company that really baffles me is Toyota. You could argue the Prius was at one time their signature product, and they let it just rot. That vehicle could have easily been the stepping stone to a great BEV.

A hybrid is actually far most complicated than a BEV, it's like a BEV with a gas motor thrown in. All the BEV pieces are there. All you have to do is upsize the electric pieces to go BEV. All the basic motor controls and battery management are highly similar.

 

[DBC]

Every car will have a rear view camera. Government regulations in the US require it. FMVSS 111, since 2018.

I think they were talking about how the Bolt uses the rear camera as the rear view mirror. It can always be on while driving.

There are pros and cons with that system.

Yes it's the camera image which shows up in the rear view mirror. Probably should have said rear view mirror camera rather than rear view camera. But it's not only the rear camera that is shown. The angle of view is quite wide. (FWIW the rear view camera in the Bolt is better than the rear view camera in the MME. LOL)

There are no downsides that I've found. The great advantage is that it totally eliminates blind spots and you can see traffic in several lanes to the left and right. Would be interested in knowing what the downside are. But If you think there are you can just reach up to the mirror, turn it off, and use the standard rear view mirror.

 

[phidauex]

GM is on the right path.

The only company that really baffles me is Toyota. You could argue the Prius was at one time their signature product, and they let it just rot. That vehicle could have easily been the stepping stone to a great BEV.

A hybrid is actually far most complicated than a BEV, it's like a BEV with a gas motor thrown in. All the BEV pieces are there. All you have to do is upsize the electric pieces to go BEV. All the basic motor controls and battery management are highly similar.

Yeah, Toyota baffles me too. I saw a talk probably 10 years ago by the head of R&D for the original Prius, and I was blown away at how many things they considered when developing the car.

Everything was evaluated using full lifecycle analysis, which even now is rarely done. For instance, they considered using carbon fiber body panels to reduce weight. It did improve mileage, but carbon fiber takes more energy to manufacture so over the life of the car it reduced carbon impact to use recyclable aluminum and steel.

The CVT is also a work of genius - it uses the two powertrain inputs to create a completely frictionless CVT (that is, there is no intentional slip or friction plates). He proudly pointed out that the Prius CVT with two power inputs has fewer moving parts than a manual transmission with only one input.

Our Prius is now at close to 200k miles, and runs great. We replaced the main battery a few years ago for ~$2500, but it has had no other service besides fluids and tires, EVER. It outlived my Saab 92X, and will stay with us for a while as a handy 2nd car after we get the MachE.

All that to say that when we decided a few years ago that our next car was going to be a BEV, we watched Toyota like crazy, but they just aren't doing it. Plenty of hybrids, but a hybrid is so "aughts" now. This is the roaring twenties, time to go 100% electric.

 

[dbsb3233]

All that to say that when we decided a few years ago that our next car was going to be a BEV, we watched Toyota like crazy, but they just aren't doing it. Plenty of hybrids, but a hybrid is so "aughts" now. This is the roaring twenties, time to go 100% electric.

For smaller/lighter vehicles like a Prius, I'd generally agree. Batteries are good enough to power many vehicles that aren't too big/heavy. But I think hybrid/PHEV will still be very big this decade for vehicles that need more than batteries alone can currently deliver. And for consumers that don't fit the BEV model (don't have easy L2 charging where they live or work, and/or do a lot of long road trips). Slow refueling (vs gas) is still a big drawback for many situations.

 

[timbop]

I'm not sure criticizing GM for only doing cosmetic updates on the Bolt platform after 5 years is "hating". Granted they are adding the supercruise, but the significant use case for that is extended travel on the highways. Unfortunately that use case also means stopping for an hour every 2-3 hours. By ignoring the charging issue until 2023 at the earliest I believe they are misreading the market.

Of course you can use the supercruise for your daily commute, but that isn't the point. The consistent perception non-BEV drivers have is that charging is a PITA and thus don't want to buy a BEV. By investing a fortune in their own battery manufacturing, are they going to be able to pivot to solid state? Or, come mid-decade are they going to be playing catch-up with shorter range slower charging batteries compared to everyone else? Until battery technology truly matures, it feels like Ford's strategy of waiting to see what shakes out is a better move.

IMHO GM is not taking the charging concerns that a majority if ICE drivers have seriously enough; that isn't hate it's an opinion.

 

[DBC]

I'm not sure criticizing GM for only doing cosmetic updates on the Bolt platform after 5 years is "hating". Granted they are adding the supercruise, but the significant use case for that is extended travel on the highways. Unfortunately that use case also means stopping for an hour every 2-3 hours. By ignoring the charging issue until 2023 at the earliest I believe they are misreading the market.

I don't think it's hating. However, the criticism seems misplaced. To begin with, GM ran out of federal tax credits a year ago. Ford still has credits. Seems to me that tells you a lot as to which company has been pushing EVs. In this regard, when it was released the Bolt was the first BEV with a range of more than 200 miles priced at under $40K (probably the only BEV with a range of 200 miles priced under $60K). What was Ford offering then? Granted GM hasn't changed the Bolt very much since release, but given the platform is limited and the fact the platform is a dead end, the surprising thing is that GM released the Bolt EUV.

For what it is, which is a vehicle for local driving, I don't see the issue. Worrying about the charge times for the Bolt is like worrying the Smart Car didn't have a 20 gallon gas tank.

Second, on the timing, the Lyriq is due out in the first quarter of 2022. Granted that will probably mean two delivered on March 31st, but it's closer to 2021 than to 2023. That vehicle will likely have a range over 300 miles and certainly won't charge any slower than the MME. GM has said it will charge above 150 kW, which seems to offer the possibility of 800v charging.

Finally the Hummer is due out in the fall of 2021 and it will charge at 280 kW. Other than the Taycan and perhaps down the road Rivian, AFAIK there isn't another vehicle slated to charge at that speed (though Tesla gets close).

 

[timbop]

I don't think it's hating. However, the criticism seems misplaced. To begin with, GM ran out of federal tax credits a year ago. Ford still has credits. Seems to me that tells you a lot as to which company has been pushing EVs. In this regard, when it was released the Bolt was the first BEV with a range of more than 200 miles priced at under $40K (probably the only BEV with a range of 200 miles priced under $60K). What was Ford offering then? Granted GM hasn't changed the Bolt very much since release, but given the platform is limited and the fact the platform is a dead end, the surprising thing is that GM released the Bolt EUV.

For what it is, which is a vehicle for local driving, I don't see the issue. Worrying about the charge times for the Bolt is like worrying the Smart Car didn't have a 20 gallon gas tank.

Second, on the timing, the Lyriq is due out in the first quarter of 2022. Granted that will probably mean two delivered on March 31st, but it's closer to 2021 than to 2023. That vehicle will likely have a range over 300 miles and certainly won't charge any slower than the MME. GM has said it will charge above 150 kW, which seems to offer the possibility of 800v charging.

Finally the Hummer is due out in the fall of 2021 and it will charge at 280 kW. Other than the Taycan and perhaps down the road Rivian, AFAIK there isn't another vehicle slated to charge at that speed (though Tesla gets close).

Yes, the bolt was fantastic and ahead of its time. They've done very little with the platform since its debut 5 years ago. It will continue to be their "mainstream" BEV for the next couple of years, and it is not competitive without massive discounts.

The lyriq is a luxury car that will be trying to crack a crowded luxury BEV market.

The Hummer is just ludicrously expensive.

 

[Birger]

Are your road trips so that the distances between chargers can't be reached with 80%? The 80% cliff was no secret, it is in the manual. At home you can charge to 100% with no delay...

I bought the Mach-E without knowing this as the manual was not even available. I guess most of us in here did. We only receive ours in May this year after enormous delays.
This reduces the practical value of the large battery significantly for long trips.
So far I have been reassured that the purchase was a sound one from the reviews, but the charging curve is a major disappointment. That combined with coming from Tesla and the fantastic Supercharger network, can make this a short lived car in our family.

 

[Marcel]

I bought the Mach-E without knowing this as the manual was not even available. I guess most of us in here did. We only receive ours in May this year after enormous delays.
This reduces the practical value of the large battery significantly for long trips.
So far I have been reassured that the purchase was a sound one from the reviews, but the charging curve is a major disappointment. That combined with coming from Tesla and the fantastic Supercharger network, can make this a short lived car in our family.

Ok if you see the video's from Bjorn and his 1000km challanges you know he rarely charges beyond 80% because that is inefficiënt on road trips if there are enough fast chargers (I think there are in Norway)

 

[phidauex]

For smaller/lighter vehicles like a Prius, I'd generally agree. Batteries are good enough to power many vehicles that aren't too big/heavy. But I think hybrid/PHEV will still be very big this decade for vehicles that need more than batteries alone can currently deliver. And for consumers that don't fit the BEV model (don't have easy L2 charging where they live or work, and/or do a lot of long road trips). Slow refueling (vs gas) is still a big drawback for many situations.

True, I'm being a bit glib. However, speaking for myself, and for probably quite a lot of people who don't know it yet, BEV is now totally practical. There will be times when super-long-range hybrids or even just regular old diesel fuel will be ideal. I'm still keeping my Tacoma, for instance, though it will get fewer miles on it.

 

[dtbaker61]

It only matters in those cases where you need 100% to get somewhere. With the current density of DCFC stations, there are lots of those cases across the US.

Personally, I'm fine with the current peak and taper. It optimizes really fast charging for zap-and-dash stops and still charges to 80% at a reasonable rate. I'm not surprised to find a drop above 80% but I am surprised it drops to L2 charging rates. That seems too severe.

fast charging MUST taper off 'significantly' above 80% charge.... I would guess because the internal BMS shunts designed for balancing the end of charge are limited to L2 charge currents. If a charge cranked along at full dc-dc current, and one cell was a little out of balance it would go over-voltage quickly, couldn't shunt around the full cell, or stop charge in time to prevent a 'thermal event'.

the nature of Li-ion batteries makes them sensitive to over-under charge and the voltage is only flat in the middle of charge, and drops off a cliff below 10%, and ramps up into runaway voltage above 100%. Li-ion has great power density vs cost, which is why they are used in cars. LFP is 'safer', but takes a little more physical space...

The next big innovation will be the solid-state LFP, like Quantumscape is working on for VW. Probably not in production for 3-5 years, so I'd guess the Tesla or LGchem batteries, or similar, will be the core of EVs for a while....

 

[DBC]

Yes, the bolt was fantastic and ahead of its time. They've done very little with the platform since its debut 5 years ago. It will continue to be their "mainstream" BEV for the next couple of years, and it is not competitive without massive discounts.

The lyriq is a luxury car that will be trying to crack a crowded luxury BEV market.

The Hummer is just ludicrously expensive.

The primary reason the discounts are "massive" is the tax credits have disappeared. If a FMV of a vehicle is $37,500 with a $7500 tax credit, then the FMV of that vehicle without the tax credit is $30,000. GM could have cut the MSRP like Tesla did. It didn't, choosing to effectively lower the price by adding discounts or incentives. The same thing will happen to the MME if/when the credits expire since the legacy car makers are loathe to cut MSRP. (The model is also dated so there is that as well).

On the Lyriq and Hummer, you're missing the forest for the trees by focusing on two vehicles. The whole point of having a flexible BEV platform with flexible batteries is you can use the same platform and batteries for many different sized vehicles. By 2025 GM will release 20 electric vehicles in NA. In addition to the Lyriq and Hummer (if you want expensive you'd want to target the Celestiq), Cadillac will launch multiple electric crossovers and "low roof entries", GMC will have an electric pickup and SUV, Chevrolet will have an electric pickup, a crossover, and other “low roof entries”, and Buick will have an electric crossover. If you want to talk about a crowded market ....

 

[dbsb3233]

True, I'm being a bit glib. However, speaking for myself, and for probably quite a lot of people who don't know it yet, BEV is now totally practical. There will be times when super-long-range hybrids or even just regular old diesel fuel will be ideal. I'm still keeping my Tacoma, for instance, though it will get fewer miles on it.

Yep, the improvement in batteries in recent years has probably expanded the potential market for BEVs from 5-10% to 40-50% now. Especially for 2-car households that have a house/garage to charge in at night at cheap residential rates. Having one BEV to pair with one ICE is a great combo (which is what we're doing).

And that's a huge market. It's much of American suburbia.

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