dbsb3233

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Tesla (and then Musk) owes their success to government regulations, transfer payments, and the government largesse.
It's possible Tesla wouldn't have gotten over the hump without $1.5B of EV tax credits (200k x $7500), without the threat of big fines that forced competitors to buy emissions credits from Tesla, and other favorable treatment, yes.

But I'm not entirely sure they would have folded without that. They've shown themselves to be incredibly nimble and creative. Not just with their cars, but in building the best DCFC network on the planet with relatively little government assistance (compared to other networks).
 

Fremont Kid

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Plenty to address/dispute in there, but this isn't the place. My comment was simply in reply to the one saying railroads went bankrupt many times and suggesting government wouldn't have. Which is false if they had the same rules. Apples and oranges. That's not to say that government doesn't need (some) extraordinary power over our lives, to tax us and spend (some) where it's impractical to do it any other way (like a road network, for instance).

I think you mistook my comments in response to the "railroads vs government" post.
Thanks for your understanding. Only other point: Don't forget the railroad acts after the civil war which included the government giving railroads land up to 10 miles in each direction of tracks as a way to incent railroads to build. A tremendous cooperative relationship which helped both the country spread and the railroads to profit for multiple decades into the future.
 

dbsb3233

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So back to some of Farley's statements. His comments on autonomous driving were interesting. It seems he finally figured out the technology can't handle the weather and the DOT is not going to let a bunch of driverless cars just drive around without surveillance. He found out the robo taxi startups had lots of people on the surveillance side watching the autonomous cars drive themselves around. So Ford shifted it's focus away from robo taxi to level 3 "highway" autonomy.

So, here is where I find incongruency in some of his positions. If Ford's data show that 50% of Americans take 4 or less trips a year of 150 miles or more, which in his mind gives reason for all Americans to adopt EV, why focus autonomy on level 3 highway travel? If 95% of the market can adopt EV because it can charge at home and travels short distances on a daily basis, why spend billions of R&D on the rare occasion where the EV is driving 80 MPH on the highway and the driver is distracted? This apparently is a major safety issue as he sees it and will focus billions of Ford dollars on it.

And again I ask, if most of the market in Farley's mind can charge at home and drive distances well within an EV's 200 mile range, why is the public charging infrastructure so important?
I think semi-automonous driving is greatly overblown (until they get to the point of true unlimited driverless for fleet shuttlepods, probably a decade away). But to your point, lots of people drive on highways daily too. Many commutes involve stretches of highway.
 

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-1 disagree on the suburban. Should be completely regulated out of existence. Along with the hummer -- any variety gas or ev. Sorry not sorry. They're death traps to those around them and deserve that cost internalized, not externalized.
The heavier vehicle always wins in a collision, assuming similar levels of technology. That's no secret and has been true since cars were invented.

Nonetheless, the Suburban is the right vehicle for me some of the time. I can take my family of five, one dog, and all our luggage on a vacation. Can't do that in anything else I own.

My Suburban has also pulled a 6x12 enclosed trailer for thousands of miles, and I can also take a 1,200 mile drive at 80+ mph and only have 2-3 refueling stops of under 10 minutes each.

GM sells a bunch of Suburbans and Yukon XLs because for certain buyers they make a lot of sense.
 
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dbsb3233

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The internet says the average commute to one's office is 27 minutes. So, the average person needs Level 3 autonomy for just 27 minutes of driving? Really? And of that 27 minutes how many miles is on a 80 MPH highway?

All im suggesting is Farley's statements are incongruent.
Well, again, I'm no fan of self-steering as a driver assist. I don't use it, I don't trust it, and I don't pay for Bluecruise.

But yes, many people do like it and use it on daily commutes. Many people hop on the the highway for their daily commute. Whether the speed is 80 MPH or 65 or 50 is irrelevant. So is "27 minutes". So what if it's only 20 minutes of ADAS (each way, 250 days/year)?
 

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You get used to it about the 4th or 5th hour of holding the steering wheel and discovering that Bluecruise is in total agreement with your own driving input. ?

Admittedly I am talking about a long multi-hour run down a never ending well marked interstate. It's really not as tenuous as it sounds.
 

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Nice whataboutism sir.

I know looking at the data is probably too much to ask, and while the mass certainly plays a part, there's a lot more that's problems with height. The MME isn't really a SUV (I mean, heck, it has less ground clearance than our Honda Fit) in that it has bumpers at the same height as our Honda Fit. Compare that to pickups and other overcompensating vehicles that I can see fully under from either Fit or MME.

Height matching doesn't super help in head-ons. However, it does help in a T-bone which is 1.7x more dangerous to the t-boned truck but 12x more deadly to a t-boned car.

Ref: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457512004265 (a little dated)

It doesn't matter if it is 4000 or 5000 pounds when a car hits a pedestrian or bike. The extra mass is basically irrelevant. What matters is the height and slope. Higher hood = more deaths. Blunt nose = more deaths. MME is bad on the latter, but the nose isn't that high. At least compared to a suburban where the hood is the height of the MME roof.

Ref: https://www.kidsandcars.org/news/po...-vehicle-front-ends-to-more-pedestrian-deaths

And yes, I think the government should prioritize people's lives over emotional support vehicles. Go find a therapist and a station wagon.
The data is what it is.

Where we likely disagree is what we should do with this data.

And when it comes to this type of data, it’s actually an argument AGAINST electric vehicles where a significant increase in weight will cause more deaths. And we aren’t able to build BEVs without very heavy batteries.

People picked on the suburban earlier, but it pales in comparison to the weight of a Hummer EV or Cybertruck.

We are going backwards in terms of safety when we convert to electric cars.

The comparable ICE in the same size and shape end up being 1000-3000 lbs lighter. It’s as simple as that.

This is a matter of picking your poison.
 

dbsb3233

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The line in that interview that really sticks out to me is when he said they can't make really big EVs profitably because the batteries cost $50,000. FIFTY THOUSAND!

He's probably exaggerating some for effect, but still. Even if it's half that, that still makes it crystal clear what the obstacle is. And why they're stuck pivoting to small EVs that need a fraction of the battery size.

Makes me wonder how small they're going. 40 kWh won't even make it to 200 miles of range, even in a tin car car.
 

jeffMachE

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Makes me wonder how small they're going. 40 kWh won't even make it to 200 miles of range, even in a tin car car.
This is the crux of the matter to me. To get acceptable range (meaning what a person wants when they buy an EV vs. what they need) we either need to greatly improve efficiency (mi/kWh to 4-ish or higher, up from the 3-ish that it is today), or improve energy density (which reduces battery costs and weight!) by a similar percentage. We've plateaued at roughly 300 mile EV's with roughly 100 kWh battery packs. A 300 mile EV with a 60 kWh pack could be profitable and affordable (and have a high demand, I think) as would 400 mile EV with a 100 kWh pack. But neither of those exist without significant movement on either efficiency or energy density.

Note that the closet car that meets the 300 mile with 60 kWh pack is the Model 3/Y - not coincidentally the highest selling and (probably) most profitable EV today.
 

dbsb3233

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This is the crux of the matter to me. To get acceptable range (meaning what a person wants when they buy an EV vs. what they need) we either need to greatly improve efficiency (mi/kWh to 4-ish or higher, up from the 3-ish that it is today), or improve energy density (which reduces battery costs and weight!) by a similar percentage. We've plateaued at roughly 300 mile EV's with roughly 100 kWh battery packs. A 300 mile EV with a 60 kWh pack could be profitable and affordable (and have a high demand, I think) as would 400 mile EV with a 100 kWh pack. But neither of those exist without significant movement on either efficiency or energy density.

Note that the closet car that meets the 300 mile with 60 kWh pack is the Model 3/Y - not coincidentally the highest selling and (probably) most profitable EV today.
Yep. Catch-22 for them. North American buyers generally want larger vehicles, and long range. Which requires a big battery pack. Which is so costly that they can't build those profitably. (Tesla has a lower cost structure and can get closer in size, but they still don't make a real SUV or pickup, just eggs and triangles.)

We've seen the charts that show the price per kWh of EV battery cells supposedly approaching $100. But there must be a helluva more expense beyond the cells themselves. Ford's biggest battery pack is 131 kWh (Lightning ER). $50,000 / 131 = $381/kWh. Again, I assume he exaggerated that number some for effect, but it didn't sound like he was trying to be intentionally crazy with it. And based on how much money they're bleeding on EVs, it's probably not way off. I wouldn't be surprised if it's half the price of the car.

Unless/until they can get battery pack prices WAY down, ICE and hybrid are gonna continue to dominate market share in North America because I don't see tiny commuter cars being popular here. They'll sell some but not a lot. Hopefully enough to satisfy onerous government regulators.
 

jeffMachE

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Yep. Catch-22 for them. North American buyers generally want larger vehicles, and long range. Which requires a big battery pack. Which is so costly that they can't build those profitably. (Tesla has a lower cost structure and can get closer in size, but they still don't make a real SUV or pickup, just eggs and triangles.)

We've seen the charts that show the price per kWh of EV battery cells supposedly approaching $100. But there must be a helluva more expense beyond the cells themselves. Ford's biggest battery pack is 131 kWh (Lightning ER). $50,000 / 131 = $381/kWh. Again, I assume he exaggerated that number some for effect, but it didn't sound like he was trying to be intentionally crazy with it. And based on how much money they're bleeding on EVs, it's probably not way off. I wouldn't be surprised if it's half the price of the car.

Unless/until they can get battery pack prices WAY down, ICE and hybrid are gonna continue to dominate market share in North America because I don't see tiny commuter cars being popular here. They'll sell some but not a lot. Hopefully enough to satisfy onerous government regulators.
This looks interesting Sakuu's Metal-Free Battery Cell: Game-Changing Innovation (youtube.com)
 

jeffMachE

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Is it though?

Companies claiming a huge breakthrough in battery tech are a dime a dozen.

So far they are all vaporware.
Absolutely need to be skeptical of "breakthroughs", but there is incredible R&D being done very broadly. I think that one (or more likely combinations of several) will keep the rate of advancement in EV-applicable batteries on the same curve that's been established for nearly 2 decades now. Batteries are getting "better" (whether you measure gravimetric energy density, volumetric energy density, cost/kWh, longevity, etc.) at 5-10% per year. Advancements like the one I linked to, which are manufacturing-based rather than chemistry-based, have, IMHO, some of the greatest potential to keep the curve going. I don't think "breakthrough" is necessarily accurate to describe the above, its just solid engineering advancement. I don't believe the future is all dependent on breakthroughs. They might happen, and I hope they do, but I'd much rather see many smaller advances happening continuously across the spectrum that put all my hopes on some mythical breakthrough.
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