Tesla Slashes Prices

[Ghost Ryder]

So it still requires much more interaction and constant. As for capabilities I mean that every aspect of both cars can be autonomously controlled, and we have the same cameras and sensors. So technically we could get an equivalent release of FSD next year. That is what I mean when I say both cars have the same capability. It has been unsafely released on one model, on the other it might be much further behind on development, but also not safe for release.

actually less interaction if you're talking about total time touching a control. But on the HWY, yes, Tesla driver will need to tug the wheel more often, unless they bypass the system by using a weight.

Actually the MME do not have the same number of cameras as a Tesla. The cameras are also place in different locations. Furthermore, the MME does not have the computer power to process all that information to enable FSD capabilities. Hell, Older tesla didn't either and had to have their computers upgraded.

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[MacherAWD]

Actually the MME do not have the same number of cameras as a Tesla. The cameras are also place in different locations. Furthermore, the MME does not have the computer power to process all that information to enable FSD capabilities. Hell, Older tesla didn't either and had to have their computers upgraded.

Cameras can bring it to a full stop and read speed signs. And again Tesla can do more but not as safetly or conveniently. You say that makes it better, I say it makes it worse. Will see long-term how many more accidents it causes and if the government shuts it down.

And please you and everyone else stop mentioning weights on the wheel, unless you are comfortable with manslaughter charges if you crash. I don't want you killing my family so you can try to cheat a safety system.

 

[MacherAWD]

actually less interaction if you're talking about total time touching a control. But on the HWY, yes, Tesla driver will need to tug the wheel more often, unless they bypass the system by using a weight.

Actually the MME do not have the same number of cameras as a Tesla. The cameras are also place in different locations. Furthermore, the MME does not have the computer power to process all that information to enable FSD capabilities. Hell, Older tesla didn't either and had to have their computers upgraded.

And yes FSD might be the best right now as far as self driving, but it should be in the same more controlled environment that waymo , Google, Uber and other self drive are in. The musk rhetoric around it has made it dangerous along with the uninformed owners who over state it's abilities.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Cameras can bring it to a full stop and read speed signs. And again Tesla can do more but not as safetly or conveniently. You say that makes it better, I say it makes it worse. Will see long-term how many more accidents it causes and if the government shuts it down.

And please you and everyone else stop mentioning weights on the wheel, unless you are comfortable with manslaughter charges if you crash. I don't want you killing my family so you can try to cheat a safety system.

There's a big difference between reading a stop sign and interpretation multiple lights at an intersection.

If you're just limiting tesla to what BC can do, then you're talking about autopilot. And most people that used both systems extensively would argue that they are equivalent.

What i'm arguing is the FSD can do much more than what BC in the MME can ever do. There is no comparison. If you want to argue if it can do it in a safe enough to be operated in the city street, then that's a different argument entirely.

As far as weights, you're still responsible for paying attention whether its BC or FSD. By the way I prefer that you don't go over the speed limit ever either, because it's against the law and endanger other drivers on the road.

If you believe the data, Autopilot has less accidents per mile driven than human drivers. I don't know of any data with FSD, but I don't see a lot of headlines regarding accidents with FSD.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

And yes FSD might be the best right now as far as self driving, but it should be in the same more controlled environment that waymo , Google, Uber and other self drive are in. The musk rhetoric around it has made it dangerous along with the uninformed owners who over state it's abilities.

What controlled environment? You mean SF and phoenix area?

There's a few Aholes out there that want attention by filming themselves sitting in the passenger seat while letting FSD drive, but the vast number of owners have self preservation. Even if they believed everything that Elon said, that myth would be dispelled pretty quickly. Most people wouldn't fully trust AP, BC, or FSD on the very activation. Most people would be hypervigilant when they first use the system, and only after time with the system would they begin to trust it more. When first got AP and BC, it was nerve racking approaching a gentle curve on the freeway. I didn't know if it was going to turn or not. I sure wasn't going to close my eyes and assume that it would. My hands were on the wheel, ready to take control if it didn't turn. Only after hours of driving with AP and BC did I begin to trust it and relax more once I became comfortable with the systems. I presume that most people experience and reactions are similar when they first experience BC or AP/FSD. Self preservation is a evolutionary trait after all.

I bet that most (99.999%) people don't get behind the wheel of tesla with FSD for the very first time, set a destination, then close their eyes and assume they'll get there. So this fallacy about uninformed owners are more dangerous because of Musk rhetoric is just that, BS. You can argue that Owners were duped into paying for a system that does not live up to the hype yet, and I would agree, but certainly drivers are not more dangerous because of the rhetoric.

 

[Mach1E]

If you believe the data, Autopilot has less accidents per mile driven than human drivers.

This statement doesn’t instill confidence.

For one, are we comparing data from the same streets? Because autopilot is most likely to be used on the highway, where human drivers also have “less accidents per mile.”

Amount of “car at fault” acceptable accidents- zero.

That’s right. Not “less,” I only accept zero.

Just like how I expect my brakes to stop me 100% of the time, I expect autopilot systems to keep me safe 100% of the time.

The fact that we somehow have a level of “acceptable losses” for Tesla autopilot is absurd.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

This statement doesn’t instill confidence.

For one, are we comparing data from the same streets? Because autopilot is most likely to be used on the highway, where human drivers also have “less accidents per mile.”

Amount of “car at fault” acceptable accidents- zero.

That’s right. Not “less,” I only accept zero.

Just like how I expect my brakes to stop me 100% of the time, I expect autopilot systems to keep me safe 100% of the time.

The fact that we somehow have a level of “acceptable losses” for Tesla autopilot is absurd.

This is the data from Tesla.
https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

It would be easy to compare if there were data on the number of accidents on the highway and total highway miles driven in the US. But I don't know if that data exist. All the data I found is total accidents and total mile driven in all roads. I'm not sure if the NHTSA has that information somewhere. But since AP is only (99%) use on the highway, you can then compare the two numbers if you can find the data. Still not perfect, but would be pretty close.

As far as accepting zero accidents vs. less, that's pretty unreasonable and a real defeatist view of looking at things. Lets assume for a second that all driven miles are equivalent and that FSD/AP has less accidents (Base on tesla data, 5-7x less) then cars without AP. Although the number is not zero. You would rather a human drive than the AP/FSD drive even though a human is 5-7x more likely to get into an accident. Famous quote " Don't let perfect be the enemy of good."

By the way, BC accident rate is not zero either. Yet you're comfortable with BC. Brakes failure rate is not zero either, yet you continue to drive using your brakes.

 

[MacherAWD]

What controlled environment? You mean SF and phoenix area?

There's a few Aholes out there that want attention by filming themselves sitting in the passenger seat while letting FSD drive, but the vast number of owners have self preservation. Even if they believed everything that Elon said, that myth would be dispelled pretty quickly. Most people wouldn't fully trust AP, BC, or FSD on the very activation. Most people would be hypervigilant when they first use the system, and only after time with the system would they begin to trust it more. When first got AP and BC, it was nerve racking approaching a gentle curve on the freeway. I didn't know if it was going to turn or not. I sure wasn't going to close my eyes and assume that it would. My hands were on the wheel, ready to take control if it didn't turn. Only after hours of driving with AP and BC did I begin to trust it and relax more once I became comfortable with the systems. I presume that most people experience and reactions are similar when they first experience BC or AP/FSD. Self preservation is a evolutionary trait after all.

I bet that most (99.999%) people don't get behind the wheel of tesla with FSD for the very first time, set a destination, then close their eyes and assume they'll get there. So this fallacy about uninformed owners are more dangerous because of Musk rhetoric is just that, BS. You can argue that Owners were duped into paying for a system that does not live up to the hype yet, and I would agree, but certainly drivers are not more dangerous because of the rhetoric.

So by your logic if 1,000 big ego software CEOs flood our streets with random beta self driving you are good with that? 100 million random programs in use tomorrow? Or is just Tesla allowed to do it?

 

[SWO]

Are you really going to argue that blue cruise is more capable than FSD?

tesla autopilot can function just fine without touching the steering wheel. when It first came out it did t even require the occasional tap if the wheel. It only added because regulators required it to insure drivers were paying attention. But it has not effect of the actual capability of the auto driving suite.

as far as capability between the two systems, FSD vs BC I dont think you can find anyone that can Honestly argue that BC is more advance.

You're saying autopilot doesn't require you to touch the wheel? I've never heard that. From everything I've seen it seems more analogous to Ford's co-pilot 360 (requiring occasional input).

As for FSD (paying $15k to beta test software for a company on public roads aside), it looks more stressful than actually driving a car. Bluecruise may only work on certain roads, but it does make driving less stressful.

On this week's InsideEVs podcast (they own at least 3 between the hosts) they were commenting on how dangerous FSD is, and I woukd consider them Tesla fanboys.

Tesla has made some bold moves and I applaud them for that, but I think they made the wrong move going to vision-based driver assistance vs. radar or a combination.

 

[MacherAWD]

Also Tesla has no radar, competitors do, so tell me again about how Tesla has more potential capability.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

You're saying autopilot doesn't require you to touch the wheel? I've never heard that. From everything I've seen it seems more analogous to Ford's co-pilot 360 (requiring occasional input).

As for FSD (paying $15k to beta test software for a company on public roads aside), it looks more stressful than actually driving a car. Bluecruise may only work on certain roads, but it does make driving less stressful.

On this week's InsideEVs podcast (they own at least 3 between the hosts) they were commenting on how dangerous FSD is, and I woukd consider them Tesla fanboys.

Tesla has made some bold moves and I applaud them for that, but I think they made the wrong move going to vision-based driver assistance vs. radar or a combination.

Autopilot requires you to touch the wheel every min or two. Or you could use the scroll wheel. It essentially nags you if I doesn't sense an input for 1-2 mins.

FSD is beta, no argument there. In it's current iteration, there is no doubt that it would make driving more stressful, not less on city streets. I'm not arguing that FSD on city street is safer than the avg driver. Far from it. On the highway (i.e. autopilot) I believe that it's safer.

As far as replacing radar, logic would say that more data is better. So yeah, I agree removing the radar was likely a cost cutting feature, but on the other hand Tesla is confident that their AI is capable of using vision only. Humans only have our two eyes when we're driving and we seem to be able to drive. It's only a matter of time before the AI is able drive on city street as well as a human driver. Not there yet, but pretty still pretty impressive on far it has come in the past few years.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Also Tesla has no radar, competitors do, so tell me again about how Tesla has more potential capability.

You can't win with the 'stans.

 

[MacherAWD]

Tesla is confident that their AI is capable of using vision only. Humans only have our two eyes when we're driving and we seem to be able to drive. It's only a matter of time before the AI is able drive on city street as well as a human driver. Not there yet, but pretty still pretty impressive on far it has come in the past few years.

This was musks personal decision against his engineers. So Tesla was not confident, Musk was. It was a choice on ego, similar to his over-hype of what's available now vs what's coming. And yes it is coming, AI in cities and once national highway and safety oversight signs off by all means let it loose. For now keep it in regulated zones.

 

[Mach1E]

This is the data from Tesla.
https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

It would be easy to compare if there were data on the number of accidents on the highway and total highway miles driven in the US. But I don't know if that data exist. All the data I found is total accidents and total mile driven in all roads. I'm not sure if the NHTSA has that information somewhere. But since AP is only (99%) use on the highway, you can then compare the two numbers if you can find the data. Still not perfect, but would be pretty close.

As far as accepting zero accidents vs. less, that's pretty unreasonable and a real defeatist view of looking at things. Lets assume for a second that all driven miles are equivalent and that FSD/AP has less accidents (Base on tesla data, 5-7x less) then cars without AP. Although the number is not zero. You would rather a human drive than the AP/FSD drive even though a human is 5-7x more likely to get into an accident. Famous quote " Don't let perfect be the enemy of good."

By the way, BC accident rate is not zero either. Yet you're comfortable with BC. Brakes failure rate is not zero either, yet you continue to drive using your brakes.

Of course all of us at the end of the day decide to take on measured risk.

You and I just disagree on the level that’s acceptable.

Even if “as a whole” autopilot is several times safer than the average driver, are you going to accept it if there’s still a moderate chance it’ll try to kill you at some point?

It is interesting that Tesla is sharing the crash data, seems somewhat transparent…….. until you realize that they also claim to not be able to link your data with your car, and they don’t really detail what data they’re comparing to.

Without the second part, it’s very easy to make things look better than they actually are. For sure would rather some 3rd party data to back it up.

quick google search just proves that point:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/08/technology/tesla-autopilot-safety-data.html

“
Every three months, Tesla publishes a safety report that provides the number of miles between crashes when drivers use the company’s driver-assistance system, Autopilot, and the number of miles between crashes when they do not.
These figures always show that accidents are less frequent with Autopilot, a collection of technologies that can steer, brake and accelerate Tesla vehicles on its own.
But the numbers are misleading. Autopilot is used mainly for highway driving, which is generally twice as safe as driving on city streets, according to the Department of Transportation. Fewer crashes may occur with Autopilot merely because it is typically used in safer situations.”





But yeah, I want any computer driven vehicles to be damn near perfect. Because I can accept that I am not a perfect driver, but I definitely won’t accept my car trying to kill me.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Of course all of us at the end of the day decide to take on measured risk.

You and I just disagree on the level that’s acceptable.

Even if “as a whole” autopilot is several times safer than the average driver, are you going to accept it if there’s still a moderate chance it’ll try to kill you at some point?

It is interesting that Tesla is sharing the crash data, seems somewhat transparent…….. until you realize that they also claim to not be able to link your data with your car, and they don’t really detail what data they’re comparing to.

Without the second part, it’s very easy to make things look better than they actually are. For sure would rather some 3rd party data to back it up.

quick google search just proves that point:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/08/technology/tesla-autopilot-safety-data.html

“
Every three months, Tesla publishes a safety report that provides the number of miles between crashes when drivers use the company’s driver-assistance system, Autopilot, and the number of miles between crashes when they do not.
These figures always show that accidents are less frequent with Autopilot, a collection of technologies that can steer, brake and accelerate Tesla vehicles on its own.
But the numbers are misleading. Autopilot is used mainly for highway driving, which is generally twice as safe as driving on city streets, according to the Department of Transportation. Fewer crashes may occur with Autopilot merely because it is typically used in safer situations.”





But yeah, I want any computer driven vehicles to be damn near perfect. Because I can accept that I am not a perfect driver, but I definitely won’t accept my car trying to kill me.

It's not a moderate chance that it will kill you. It's in fact really small percent, smaller than if you're driving yourself. People have the same fear when they're not in control. This is seen when people have fear of flying. Even though flying is much safer than driving based on miles traveled, some people still will not fly because they have to give up some form of control. All things being equal, if data show that AP/FSD or any other new automated driving system out there is 5-7x safer in similar conditions, then yeah, I would rather the computer drive.

As far as the last quote from NYT article. If taken at whole value, it says that driving on highway is 2x as safe as city street. So to extrapolate, base on the most recent data, for all cars in the US, there is one accident every 650k miles. Assuming that this is all on city street, which it's not, but let's assume worse case scenario, than that means that on the highway, it would equate to 1 crash every 1.3 million miles. This is still much more frequent than tesla autopilot that has one crash for every 4.8million miles. So about 3.5x less frequent. I call that a win.

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