Tesla Slashes Prices

EVandSolar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Threads
0
Messages
112
Reaction score
129
Location
United States
Vehicles
Kia Niro EV, Tesla M3, Ioniq PHEV(daughter)
Occupation
Medical
Country flag
Tesla model Y, per Tesla shows a higher EPA range than the Mach E.

Tesla model Y has a lower real world range than the Mach E.

Doesn’t get much simpler than that.
Well, I thought it was simple, but you may not be comprehending the conversation well enough to follow. Let me try once more, keeping things really simple for you:
1) You have accused Tesla of using an easier EPA test cycle to inflate their range compared to others. This is false, and I've clearly explained why. Go back and read the conversation. I've posted facts from the EPA website regarding the EPA test cycles.

2) You have claimed Tesla inflates their EPA range rating. This is false. They post accurate data from the EPA tests.

3) Ford Mach E and Tesla MY are closer in range than the EPA range estimates would seem to indicate. This, is TRUE. Your comprehension failure seems to be in understanding or admitting why. What you want to believe is that Tesla/Musk is bad and lying/inflating/cheating/using an easier test cycle etc etc etc. In this, you are completely wrong. I've countered your false opinions with facts. The TRUTH is that Ford simply changed their EPA test results significantly to advertise a lower rating than what they actually achieved in the EPA test results. So Tesla did not inflate. Ford deflated. But not on the Lightning, which had a bigger range variation than all the Teslas tested.

You can argue that Tesla should change their EPA test results to match Fords adjustment if you'd like since you claim they are the only one that doesn't deflate their range results some random amount. But, I also showed that 7 other manufacturers, INCLUDING FORD, have similar or worse actual tested range compared to the EPA range estimates. So in this, you are again wrong.

What you don't seem to understand, is that I agree the Mach E and Tesla MY are closer in actual range than the advertised EPA range would seem to indicate. Re-stating this over and over does not somehow make you right about your false claims in regards to why the range is close.


It’s the blind faith that the Tesla supporters here have that’s a bit silly. Tesla can do no wrong in their eyes.
Why go off topic with a vague, stereotyping generalization that has nothing to do with the discussion? Stick to the facts and topic at hand, unless of course you can't back up what you are saying with facts(which so far, you haven't been able to).
Sponsored

 

MacherAWD

Well-Known Member
First Name
Erik
Joined
Mar 29, 2022
Threads
11
Messages
1,082
Reaction score
1,409
Location
North Shore MA
Vehicles
2021 AWD Select C&T, 2020 Bolt Premier
Occupation
Software Implementation Manager
Country flag
Well, I thought it was simple, but you may not be comprehending the conversation well enough to follow. Let me try once more, keeping things really simple for you:
1) You have accused Tesla of using an easier EPA test cycle to inflate their range compared to others. This is false, and I've clearly explained why. Go back and read the conversation. I've posted facts from the EPA website regarding the EPA test cycles.

2) You have claimed Tesla inflates their EPA range rating. This is false. They post accurate data from the EPA tests.

3) Ford Mach E and Tesla MY are closer in range than the EPA range estimates would seem to indicate. This, is TRUE. Your comprehension failure seems to be in understanding or admitting why. What you want to believe is that Tesla/Musk is bad and lying/inflating/cheating/using an easier test cycle etc etc etc. In this, you are completely wrong. I've countered your false opinions with facts. The TRUTH is that Ford simply changed their EPA test results significantly to advertise a lower rating than what they actually achieved in the EPA test results. So Tesla did not inflate. Ford deflated. But not on the Lightning, which had a bigger range variation than all the Teslas tested.

You can argue that Tesla should change their EPA test results to match Fords adjustment if you'd like since you claim they are the only one that doesn't deflate their range results some random amount. But, I also showed that 7 other manufacturers, INCLUDING FORD, have similar or worse actual tested range compared to the EPA range estimates. So in this, you are again wrong.

What you don't seem to understand, is that I agree the Mach E and Tesla MY are closer in actual range than the advertised EPA range would seem to indicate. Re-stating this over and over does not somehow make you right about your false claims in regards to why the range is close.




Why go off topic with a vague, stereotyping generalization that has nothing to do with the discussion? Stick to the facts and topic at hand, unless of course you can't back up what you are saying with facts(which so far, you haven't been able to).
You are right, the whole world should follow what Tesla does. The government and Europe should adopt the Tesla charger as standard, we should all use Twitter now, and while we are at f usb-c we should all switch to apple chargers....
 

EVandSolar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Threads
0
Messages
112
Reaction score
129
Location
United States
Vehicles
Kia Niro EV, Tesla M3, Ioniq PHEV(daughter)
Occupation
Medical
Country flag
You are right, the whole world should follow what Tesla does. The government and Europe should adopt the Tesla charger as standard, we should all use Twitter now, and while we are at f usb-c we should all switch to apple chargers....
I think the EPA should consider changing the test cycles used for EV range. One of the tests should be a constant 70 mph highway range test reported two ways: optimal temps, and freezing temps. People should know how much range to expect on a long highway trip at interstate speeds in both warm and cold weather. The other should be similar to what is reported now...average range in normal driving i.e. mix of city/highway/commuting/around town.

However, I don't think it's realistic to expect one manufacturer to conform to another manufacturers seemingly random practice. For example, what percentage does Ford reduce their EPA range test results by? Is it published? It doesn't seem to be uniform as the results are all over the place. 70 mph range test is -1%, -6%, or -15% depending on make/model.
 

Ghost Ryder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2021
Threads
25
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
2,318
Location
LA
Vehicles
Tesla MYP, 22 GTPE
Country flag
You are right, the whole world should follow what Tesla does. The government and Europe should adopt the Tesla charger as standard, we should all use Twitter now, and while we are at f usb-c we should all switch to apple chargers....
Funny you should say this, but looks like Ford is adopting Tesla's charging standard.
 

Mach1E

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2021
Threads
76
Messages
7,719
Reaction score
9,602
Location
Florida
Vehicles
Mach 1, Chevy SS-sold, GTPE delivered oct 2021
Country flag
Well, I thought it was simple, but you may not be comprehending the conversation well enough to follow. Let me try once more, keeping things really simple for you:
1) You have accused Tesla of using an easier EPA test cycle to inflate their range compared to others. This is false, and I've clearly explained why. Go back and read the conversation. I've posted facts from the EPA website regarding the EPA test cycles.

2) You have claimed Tesla inflates their EPA range rating. This is false. They post accurate data from the EPA tests.

3) Ford Mach E and Tesla MY are closer in range than the EPA range estimates would seem to indicate. This, is TRUE. Your comprehension failure seems to be in understanding or admitting why. What you want to believe is that Tesla/Musk is bad and lying/inflating/cheating/using an easier test cycle etc etc etc. In this, you are completely wrong. I've countered your false opinions with facts. The TRUTH is that Ford simply changed their EPA test results significantly to advertise a lower rating than what they actually achieved in the EPA test results. So Tesla did not inflate. Ford deflated. But not on the Lightning, which had a bigger range variation than all the Teslas tested.

You can argue that Tesla should change their EPA test results to match Fords adjustment if you'd like since you claim they are the only one that doesn't deflate their range results some random amount. But, I also showed that 7 other manufacturers, INCLUDING FORD, have similar or worse actual tested range compared to the EPA range estimates. So in this, you are again wrong.

What you don't seem to understand, is that I agree the Mach E and Tesla MY are closer in actual range than the advertised EPA range would seem to indicate. Re-stating this over and over does not somehow make you right about your false claims in regards to why the range is close.




Why go off topic with a vague, stereotyping generalization that has nothing to do with the discussion? Stick to the facts and topic at hand, unless of course you can't back up what you are saying with facts(which so far, you haven't been able to).
This is just getting ridiculous now.

There are two EPA tests.

The one Tesla uses and chooses to use a smaller reduction % makes their numbers look higher.

You seem to admit it, but at the same time…….. you don’t admit it.

Instead you keep circling around an argument that I am NOT making. (Straw man argument): the accuracy of each test.

And again, it’s a silly argument. Every test is accurate if you drive like the test. You’re comparing it to a 70 mph cruise. Why? Why not compare to 30 mph or 50 mph or stop and go?

If you pick any other speed comparison, it would make the EPA test look “inaccurate.”

So please, for the love of all things holy, quit making statements about “accuracy.” It’s like throwing a dart and THEN drawing a target. In this case you drew the target around a 70 mph cruise.

The ONE and only point I’m making is that the consumer is fooled into thinking Tesla has more range because Tesla chooses to use a different test than everyone else and a smaller reduction %.

I would love to hear you explain how “inflating” and “reducing less” are any different though.
 


Ghost Ryder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2021
Threads
25
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
2,318
Location
LA
Vehicles
Tesla MYP, 22 GTPE
Country flag
This is just getting ridiculous now.

There are two EPA tests.

The one Tesla uses and chooses to use a smaller reduction % makes their numbers look higher.

You seem to admit it, but at the same time…….. you don’t admit it.

Instead you keep circling around an argument that I am NOT making. (Straw man argument): the accuracy of each test.

And again, it’s a silly argument. Every test is accurate if you drive like the test. You’re comparing it to a 70 mph cruise. Why? Why not compare to 30 mph or 50 mph or stop and go?

If you pick any other speed comparison, it would make the EPA test look “inaccurate.”

So please, for the love of all things holy, quit making statements about “accuracy.” It’s like throwing a dart and THEN drawing a target. In this case you drew the target around a 70 mph cruise.

The ONE and only point I’m making is that the consumer is fooled into thinking Tesla has more range because Tesla chooses to use a different test than everyone else and a smaller reduction %.

I would love to hear you explain how “inflating” and “reducing less” are any different though.
I think the issue is the accusation itself, that tesla is "lying about it's range." . When in fact, they are not. They are using a more thorough test that was established by the EPA. The other point is that they started using this test before almost all other manufacturers did. So they did not decide to go against the grain when there was already precedence. Furthermore there is no defined "real world range." All these test by "independent" reviewers are methods that they decided to use. The EPA established a protocol (5 cycle), one they claim more accurately reflect real world driving. And that's the one that Tesla uses.

They always claim their range based on EPA testing, nothing more, nothing less.

Personally, I think there should only be one specific test for EV, established by the EPA.
 

Ghost Ryder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2021
Threads
25
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
2,318
Location
LA
Vehicles
Tesla MYP, 22 GTPE
Country flag
That’s not a bad thing. Tesla has great charging.
That's the point, just because tesla, or ELon is involved, doesn't automatically make it bad. There's so much tribalism now that a good idea is automatically discounted and jeered just because it didn't come from "our team."
 

Mach1E

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2021
Threads
76
Messages
7,719
Reaction score
9,602
Location
Florida
Vehicles
Mach 1, Chevy SS-sold, GTPE delivered oct 2021
Country flag
I think the issue is the accusation itself, that tesla is "lying about it's range." . When in fact, they are not. They are using a more thorough test that was established by the EPA. The other point is that they started using this test before almost all other manufacturers did. So they did not decide to go against the grain when there was already precedence. Furthermore there is no defined "real world range." All these test by "independent" reviewers are methods that they decided to use. The EPA established a protocol (5 cycle), one they claim more accurately reflect real world driving. And that's the one that Tesla uses.

They always claim their range based on EPA testing, nothing more, nothing less.

Personally, I think there should only be one specific test for EV, established by the EPA.
You put “lying” in quotes.

I’m not saying they’re lying.

They just choose a different reduction factor that makes their range look larger.

Yes, a single test could fix the problem for consumers.

Or until that happens, they could change the reduction % or use the same test as everyone else.

But they choose not to.

It’s not lying, but it’s not fair to the consumer.
 

Ghost Ryder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2021
Threads
25
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
2,318
Location
LA
Vehicles
Tesla MYP, 22 GTPE
Country flag
You put “lying” in quotes.

I’m not saying they’re lying.

They just choose a different reduction factor that makes their range look larger.

Yes, a single test could fix the problem for consumers.

Or until that happens, they could change the reduction % or use the same test as everyone else.

But they choose not to.

It’s not lying, but it’s not fair to the consumer.
But are all manufacturers using the same reduction %? I find that hard to believe as Porsche has grossly under estimate their range, and even different models of Audi have widely different range estimates compared independent tests. the GT under report its range where as the ID4/etron are more accurate or slightly over report when compared to independent tests. So the question becomes what % should they use? It again comes down to a unifying standard, that's not there. Europe has one standard that all OEM abide by, the EPA should follow.
 

Mach1E

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2021
Threads
76
Messages
7,719
Reaction score
9,602
Location
Florida
Vehicles
Mach 1, Chevy SS-sold, GTPE delivered oct 2021
Country flag
But are all manufacturers using the same reduction %? I find that hard to believe as Porsche has grossly under estimate their range, and even different models of Audi have widely different range estimates compared independent tests. the GT under report its range where as the ID4/etron are more accurate or slightly over report when compared to independent tests. So the question becomes what % should they use? It again comes down to a unifying standard, that's not there. Europe has one standard that all OEM abide by, the EPA should follow.
Not sure what Porsche is doing.

Also I’m not convinced they underestimate their range. They just do the same test as everyone else.

Why do they perform better on the highway? 2 speed transmission. But the EPA test isn’t a 70 mph cruise test. So that’s why I keep saying it’s “silly” to compare the EPA test to a 70 mph cruise to verify “accuracy.”

Only way to verify accuracy would be to drive exactly like the EPA test.

That said, we aren’t really talking about Porsche.

This is a thread about Tesla on a Mach E forum, thus the reason they’re being compared.

And yeah, I’ve agreed multiple times that a single test is a solution. But until that happens, there’s that other solution Tesla could do that I keep bringing up……
 

EVandSolar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Threads
0
Messages
112
Reaction score
129
Location
United States
Vehicles
Kia Niro EV, Tesla M3, Ioniq PHEV(daughter)
Occupation
Medical
Country flag
This is just getting ridiculous now.

There are two EPA tests.

The ONE and only point I’m making is that the consumer is fooled into thinking Tesla has more range because Tesla chooses to use a different test than everyone else
This may be the ONE and only point you are making, but it is WRONG!

If you are unwilling to change your opinion based on facts, then discussion is meaningless. You are wrong. The facts prove it. Acknowledge the facts of the matter and concede that you are wrong. You are spreading false information.

The five cycle test that Tesla uses does not fool consumers into thinking Tesla has more range. The five cycle test, per the organization that created the test, is the harder test with more challenging scenarios. I posted all of this very clearly. I won't repost as I already spent time carefully attempting to inform you on the facts of the matter.

The ONE and only point I’m making is that the consumer is fooled into thinking Tesla has more range because Tesla chooses to use a different test than everyone else and a smaller reduction %.

I would love to hear you explain how “inflating” and “reducing less” are any different though.
The second part of your opinion is half correct and half wrong. Tesla does no alter their EPA test results. They report actual results. So you are correct in that Tesla does not apply a reduction % to their EPA range test results. Where you are wrong is that this is different than "everyone else".

The purpose of the examples I showed in the extensive 70 mph range tests done by Inside EV's, is that this is a consistent format that shows how much different manufacturers choose to reduce the range they get in their EPA range tests.

For example, if the Mustang Mach-E's 70 mph range test result indicates that they achieve
~6.5% less than their EPA rated range when driven at a constant 70 mph, and Tesla gets 12% less than their EPA rated range when driven at 70 mph, this shows that, on this specific model of the Mustang Mach-E, Ford has lowered their EPA range results, which is why they are closer to their rating than Tesla when driven at 70 mph. This does not prove that Tesla is trying to mislead customers...just that Ford has chosen to alter their results. You don't like it....oh well.

The FALSE and WRONG part of your opinion is that Tesla is different than "everyone else" in how they report their range i.e. they are the only one that doesn't reduce their results.

Ford F150 lighting got 15% less range during the 70 mph test than its EPA rated range. No Tesla has performed this poorly. So we could argue that Ford is inflating their EPA rated range since they performed worse than Tesla. Also, there are 7 manufacturers that performed similarly to Tesla in this testing. 7! This means that Tesla does not report EPA range different than everyone else. Different than the specific car you drive? Yes, Ford chose to reduce the range they report on your specific make and model. But 7 other manufacturers did not. Ford did not on another model. Tesla is not an outlier here...they are middle of the pack.

I would love to hear you explain how “inflating” and “reducing less” are any different though.
Tesla EPA range test result: 330 miles. Not inflated. Fact. This is the actual, factual number of miles they achieved in the more rigorous EPA 5 cycle test.

Fords reported EPA range on Mustang Mach E: some unknown, unpublished % lower than actual results. Tesla reduced their results less than Ford. Tesla reduced their EPA range by 0%. No reduction. Also, no inflating. It's as simple as that.

You seem angry that Ford chose to reduce their range, which makes it look worse than the Tesla Model Y. You are inaccurately claiming that Tesla is inflating their range. This is a false statement. You are inaccurately claiming that Tesla is inflating their EPA range results more than everyone else. This is false, given that 7 other manufactures have similar results in real world testing and even Ford has a model with a larger variation. You are inaccurately claiming that Tesla uses a different EPA test that inflates range. This is false; the test is harder.
 

Mach1E

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2021
Threads
76
Messages
7,719
Reaction score
9,602
Location
Florida
Vehicles
Mach 1, Chevy SS-sold, GTPE delivered oct 2021
Country flag
This may be the ONE and only point you are making, but it is WRONG!

If you are unwilling to change your opinion based on facts, then discussion is meaningless. You are wrong. The facts prove it. Acknowledge the facts of the matter and concede that you are wrong. You are spreading false information.

The five cycle test that Tesla uses does not fool consumers into thinking Tesla has more range. The five cycle test, per the organization that created the test, is the harder test with more challenging scenarios. I posted all of this very clearly. I won't repost as I already spent time carefully attempting to inform you on the facts of the matter.



The second part of your opinion is half correct and half wrong. Tesla does no alter their EPA test results. They report actual results. So you are correct in that Tesla does not apply a reduction % to their EPA range test results. Where you are wrong is that this is different than "everyone else".

The purpose of the examples I showed in the extensive 70 mph range tests done by Inside EV's, is that this is a consistent format that shows how much different manufacturers choose to reduce the range they get in their EPA range tests.

For example, if the Mustang Mach-E's 70 mph range test result indicates that they achieve
~6.5% less than their EPA rated range when driven at a constant 70 mph, and Tesla gets 12% less than their EPA rated range when driven at 70 mph, this shows that, on this specific model of the Mustang Mach-E, Ford has lowered their EPA range results, which is why they are closer to their rating than Tesla when driven at 70 mph. This does not prove that Tesla is trying to mislead customers...just that Ford has chosen to alter their results. You don't like it....oh well.

The FALSE and WRONG part of your opinion is that Tesla is different than "everyone else" in how they report their range i.e. they are the only one that doesn't reduce their results.

Ford F150 lighting got 15% less range during the 70 mph test than its EPA rated range. No Tesla has performed this poorly. So we could argue that Ford is inflating their EPA rated range since they performed worse than Tesla. Also, there are 7 manufacturers that performed similarly to Tesla in this testing. 7! This means that Tesla does not report EPA range different than everyone else. Different than the specific car you drive? Yes, Ford chose to reduce the range they report on your specific make and model. But 7 other manufacturers did not. Ford did not on another model. Tesla is not an outlier here...they are middle of the pack.



Tesla EPA range test result: 330 miles. Not inflated. Fact. This is the actual, factual number of miles they achieved in the more rigorous EPA 5 cycle test.

Fords reported EPA range on Mustang Mach E: some unknown, unpublished % lower than actual results. Tesla reduced their results less than Ford. Tesla reduced their EPA range by 0%. No reduction. Also, no inflating. It's as simple as that.

You seem angry that Ford chose to reduce their range, which makes it look worse than the Tesla Model Y. You are inaccurately claiming that Tesla is inflating their range. This is a false statement. You are inaccurately claiming that Tesla is inflating their EPA range results more than everyone else. This is false, given that 7 other manufactures have similar results in real world testing and even Ford has a model with a larger variation. You are inaccurately claiming that Tesla uses a different EPA test that inflates range. This is false; the test is harder.
My goodness, you keep making the same straw man argument. This has nothing to do with a 70 mph cruise test. It’s ONLY about the EPA test.

I’ve posted this multiple times, but you keep ignoring this FACT- It’s all about the correction factor.

Here is yet another article explaining it-

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/2...as-are-wrong-much-of-the-time-in-the-usa/amp/

Here is a full study done by the Society of Automotive Engineers in conjunction with Car and Driver explaining the same thing.

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2023-01-0349/

Enjoy the facts. The test may be “harder,” but the results are higher because of the correction factor they use.

Why? Because math. Fact.
 

ChasingCoral

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Threads
376
Messages
12,403
Reaction score
24,517
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
GB E4X FE, Leaf, Tacoma, F-150 Lightning ordered
Occupation
Retired oceanographer
Country flag
Why go off topic with a vague, stereotyping generalization that has nothing to do with the discussion? Stick to the facts and topic at hand, unless of course you can't back up what you are saying with facts(which so far, you haven't been able to).
Agreed. Isn't this thread supposed to be about Tesla prices????

Maybe y'all thought this was
https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/why-tesla-epa-are-both-wrong-about-ev-range.4081/

or

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...d-throttling-discussion-by-out-of-spec.13827/
 

Mach1E

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2021
Threads
76
Messages
7,719
Reaction score
9,602
Location
Florida
Vehicles
Mach 1, Chevy SS-sold, GTPE delivered oct 2021
Country flag
I dunno, maybe because any thread with the word “Tesla” in it alerts the AI bots to come in and defend the overlord?

I think off topic was the lesser evil vs bumping those several year old threads.

Nobody makes it to page 74 of this thread anyways.
Sponsored

 
 




Top