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Tesla vs Mach E

dbsb3233

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The only thing I will thank tesla for is with out them, the EV push would not have been so fast.
I applaud Tesla for their innovation. I'm a big free market guy, so the more competition the better. Companies competing push each other, and the result is better and better products for consumers. While I prefer the Mach-E, I'm glad Tesla will continue to be around to compete.

I'm also glad Ford is continuing to develop ICE and PHEV as well. More choices for consumers is a good thing. It also pushes BEV development to try and match ICE functionality on things like vehicle size and highway range, and shrink the gap on refueling time.
 

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stacienicolej

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I guess someone needs to add "check roof seal" to the growing list of things to inspect on delivery checklists that are out there. Probably need to add "make sure lug nuts are there" also so the wheels don't come off.
they need to get their priorities in check.
 

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I guess someone needs to add "check roof seal" to the growing list of things to inspect on delivery checklists that are out there. Probably need to add "make sure lug nuts are there" also so the wheels don't come off.
Last item on the new Model Y delivery checklist:

"Confirm order for Ford Mustang Mach-e"
 

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The Tesla I bought two years ago was the only car I've ever purchased where people said make sure you check x, y, z before accepting delivery. And numerous owners saying they outright rejected delivery. I had a paint defect on delivery that was never addressed even after multiple emails and calls. Go figure? Someone I knew PERSONALLY had to reject delivery on a Certified used Model X (bought directly through Tesla) because of false advertisement of condition of vehicle. You don't get real pictures of the vehicle BTW! They just use stock images!

This is what you get when you are a new car company, that doesn't have 3rd party dealerships.

When I bought my Ford, I didn't worry one bit that anything would be wrong with it. If something is wrong, I drive 10 minutes to the dealership and the service manager I know personally handles the problem. Plus they throw me in a loaner. With Tesla, you can't even call the service center direct. They're also over two hours away from me. Don't forget they hate doing loaners and only do Uber Credits. Ford stands for a lot more than just a car. It is an American brand with over 100 years of experience. Name brands that have outlasted Ford? Harder to do than you think.

Can't sell a product if you can't service or provide after sales customer support. Doesn't matter how good your product is.
 
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First Edition

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The Tesla I bought two years ago was the only car I've ever purchased where people said make sure you check x, y, z before accepting delivery. And numerous owners saying they outright rejected delivery. I had a paint defect on delivery that was never addressed even after multiple emails and calls. Go figure? Someone I knew PERSONALLY had to reject delivery on a Certified used Model X (bought directly through Tesla) because of false advertisement of condition of vehicle. You don't get real pictures of the vehicle BTW! They just use stock images!

This is what you get when you are a new car company, that doesn't have 3rd party dealerships.

When I bought my Ford, I didn't worry one bit that anything would be wrong with it. If something is wrong, I drive 10 minutes to the dealership and the service manager I know personally handles the problem. Plus they throw me in a loaner. With Tesla, you can't even call the service center direct. They're also over two hours away from me. Don't forget they hate doing loaners and only do Uber Credits. Ford stands for a lot more than just a car. It is an American brand with over 100 years of experience. Name brands that have outlasted Ford? Harder to do than you think.

Can't sell a product if you can't service or provide after sales customer support. Doesn't matter how good your product is.
I had a punch list of 12 items on my Model S at delivery, and I wasn‘t even being picky. My Tesla is by far the lowest quality car I’ve ever owned. The loaner Tesla’s I’ve had while mine was in for repairs were even bigger POSs than mine.
 

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The Tesla I bought two years ago was the only car I've ever purchased where people said make sure you check x, y, z before accepting delivery. And numerous owners saying they outright rejected delivery. I had a paint defect on delivery that was never addressed even after multiple emails and calls. Go figure? Someone I knew PERSONALLY had to reject delivery on a Certified used Model X (bought directly through Tesla) because of false advertisement of condition of vehicle. You don't get real pictures of the vehicle BTW! They just use stock images!

This is what you get when you are a new car company, that doesn't have 3rd party dealerships.

When I bought my Ford, I didn't worry one bit that anything would be wrong with it. If something is wrong, I drive 10 minutes to the dealership and the service manager I know personally handles the problem. Plus they throw me in a loaner. With Tesla, you can't even call the service center direct. They're also over two hours away from me. Don't forget they hate doing loaners and only do Uber Credits. Ford stands for a lot more than just a car. It is an American brand with over 100 years of experience. Name brands that have outlasted Ford? Harder to do than you think.

Can't sell a product if you can't service or provide after sales customer support. Doesn't matter how good your product is.

Tesla has had the market to themselves. But things are going to start changing for them. They're never going to achieve profit that justifies their current market cap.
 

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I had a punch list of 12 items on my Model S at delivery, and I wasn‘t even being picky. My Tesla is by far the lowest quality car I’ve ever owned. The loaner Tesla’s I’ve had while mine was in for repairs were even bigger POSs than mine.
THIS! Their Loaners are complete POS haha. My Ford was in for service last week and I got a 2020 Ford Escape, the new redesign. It handled so well and was so quiet inside, for a $29,000 MSRP car new I couldn't believe it. BLIS, Adaptive cruise, lane keep assist, Apple carplay, auto climate, etc. with ecoboost engine. That thing would get up and go. Amazing value really.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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This is what you get when you are a new car company, that doesn't have 3rd party dealerships.
we all hate the dealer model because of all the pricing f*ckery and the like, but they do have a place... and it's not just post-sales service. It's something lost even on the Mach-E for us FE folks, which is the ability to drive a vehicle before committing to anything.(*) You would never buy a new car with some of these kinds of defects (body panels, paint problems, unattached seats, obviously jacked up sound systems) from a dealer because you'd find them in 0.01s as part of a test drive and basic walkaround, and if you didn't, at that point you know, deep down, that's on you. (**) It's very possible the dealer wouldn't have even accepted delivery from the manufacturer in the first place.

(*) yes we can refuse delivery on the MME also but I'd argue that's different than "test drive and walk away"

(**) one of the cars I've owned, I bought used, and I somehow, even with a walkaround and test drive, missed a rather large body issue on the vehicle. Did I get pissed? Yes, but at myself, because wtaf I missed it and it's not like it wasn't there or obvious.
 

LYTMCQ

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we all hate the dealer model because of all the pricing f*ckery and the like, but they do have a place... and it's not just post-sales service.
It is on service that the dealership model works best. You can talk to someone about the car. With Tesla you talk to bots, can be frustrating.

Simple thing a Ford dealer service would fix while I waited takes a bunch of texts and emails and a 20 day wait at Tesla.
 

mark360

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we all hate the dealer model because of all the pricing f*ckery and the like, but they do have a place... and it's not just post-sales service. It's something lost even on the Mach-E for us FE folks, which is the ability to drive a vehicle before committing to anything.(*) You would never buy a new car with some of these kinds of defects (body panels, paint problems, unattached seats, obviously jacked up sound systems) from a dealer because you'd find them in 0.01s as part of a test drive and basic walkaround, and if you didn't, at that point you know, deep down, that's on you. (**) It's very possible the dealer wouldn't have even accepted delivery from the manufacturer in the first place.

(*) yes we can refuse delivery on the MME also but I'd argue that's different than "test drive and walk away"

(**) one of the cars I've owned, I bought used, and I somehow, even with a walkaround and test drive, missed a rather large body issue on the vehicle. Did I get pissed? Yes, but at myself, because wtaf I missed it and it's not like it wasn't there or obvious.
Here is my take on dealers:

What many people fail to realize is that the MSRP of a vehicle is what Tesla charges all customers. They do not discount their price. They charge you the highest price possible for their vehicles. You in fact, are not getting a better deal buying direct. Why? How? Let me explain.

What Ford Motor Company does is give their dealers a wholesale price. What is wholesale? Wholesale pricing takes out all the true sales and support expenses needed to properly satisfy a customer. When you buy a vehicle, there is a lot of expenses that go into it:
  • Land to store inventory, banks to finance inventory with interest expense, sales teams that are paid, managers that oversee those employees. Finance staff on site to help with customer financing, trade in staff that properly value and purchase your trade in, detailers that will detail your vehicle. There are different state and local laws that drive the cost of the product up. A building that all this can be done in. All of which add a sizeable cost to the price of a product.
The dealerships purchase directly from the manufacturer at a cost that disregards those expenses. Ford Motor company for example has a Gross Margin of 14%. That is PUINY! On top of that the average upcharge margin on new vehicles are 5% from the dealer. Combined, you're looking at 19% profit of your purchase split 14% to the manufacturer and 5% to the dealer. So this is how that looks:

  • $40,000 Ford - $5,600 profit for Ford, $2,000 profit for the dealer. Total profit is $7,600. (Keep in mind these are using ideal averages sourced from friends and internet).

Tesla, on the other hand has a 35% profit margin on the Model 3.

  • $40,000 Tesla x 35% = $14,000 profit for Tesla.

Tesla has a high profit margin because they charge customers the MSRP price the dealers never charge the customers (due to competition among local ford dealers for example) & they minimize their sales and after sales support expenses tremendously. They don't really offer test drives, don't have showrooms, don't have a full sales staff calling customers, they deliver vehicles with obvious issues, the limited staff they do have is overwhelmed, delivery centers are removed from service so service related issues can't be handled during delivery, they don't buy trade ins unless its a Tesla, they don't, they don't, they don't. It is honestly one of the most value-less car buying experiences that leave so much to be desired.

Warren Buffet once said Price is what you pay, Value is what you get. Even though I've proven the direct sales model is flawed and valueless when it comes to buying a car, it's all about the value proposition that matters to you.
 
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LYTMCQ

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$40,000 Tesla x 35% = $14,000 profit for Tesla.
Tesla has never made a profit absent ZEV Federal tax credits it is able to sell

What makes you think Tesla is making $5B gross profit per car?

Are you maybe referencing this old report on $35k per car "profit".

"Now, as the Los Angeles Times reports, we learn that one analyst estimates Tesla could take in as much as $35,000 more from each Model S by selling its ZEV credits."

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ey-on-model-s-35k-per-car-selling-zev-credits
 

mark360

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Tesla has never made a profit absent ZEV Federal tax credits it is able to sell

What makes you think Tesla is making $5B gross profit per car?

Are you maybe referencing this old report on $35k per car "profit".

"Now, as the Los Angeles Times reports, we learn that one analyst estimates Tesla could take in as much as $35,000 more from each Model S by selling its ZEV credits."

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ey-on-model-s-35k-per-car-selling-zev-credits
You're looking at their NET profit on an income statement, I'm talking about GROSS profit. Gross profit it what the company profits after they take their direct expenses out of making the car. This includes all the materials, labor, and factory costs associated typically.

Here is the source, which of course may be a bad representation because when I look at their 2019 financial statment their gross profit across all their vehicles is roughly 23%, still higher than Ford's combined gross profit and factoring in dealer markup.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-model-3-gross-margin-39-percent-report/

https://ir.tesla.com/static-files/47313d21-3cac-4f69-9497-d161bce15da4
 
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