The EV Naysayers

[tomking29]

There seems to be a lot of negativity on EVs lately. I suspect the government pushed a little too hard and EVs aren’t right for EVERYONE just yet. I thought this article brought some much needed perspective.

https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/11/ev-sales-are-thriving-heres-how-the-us-can-stay-in-the-race/

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[4sallypat]

Good article!

Very true that in North America, we are at a disadvantage compared to Europe and Asia.

When I was in Europe this past summer, lots of EVs with chargers abound.

 

[AhardFSU]

Good article. A lot of these recent stories have focused on Ford and GM slowing down production. It’s interesting that none of them mention that Hyundai and Kia are increasing production and that they’re trying to speed up the opening of their Georgia plant. They don’t mention that BWM and Mercedes EV sales in the US as a percentage of their overall US vehicle sales are higher than Ford and GM. And most of the articles glance over the fact that the Model Y is the best selling car in the world; all inconvenient points to make.

All of the points the author made are valid and correct. One thing he didn’t mention, but ties into what he was talking about is the fear of the Chinese EVs from policy makers in Europe and the US as seen in the methods of protectionism that are being proposed.

At the end of the day, if we block Chinese EVs that are made in Mexico or we place massive tariffs on them to “protect” our industry, consumers lose. GM and Ford aren’t being helped by blocking the Chinese. If you allow the Chinese into the market, consumers will get cheaper, well made EVs and GM and Ford would have to learn how to produce cost effective EVs that still have good quality.

At the pace we’re currently on, 5 years from now, GM and Ford would continue to claim that they can’t produce a profitable EV in the 28k price range. So we need a Toyota/Honda moment like when those companies 1st entered the US and European markets. That moment brought lower prices and new competition.

 

[tomking29]

Good article. A lot of these recent stories have focused on Ford and GM slowing down production. It’s interesting that none of them mention that Hyundai and Kia are increasing production and that they’re trying to speed up the opening of their Georgia plant. They don’t mention that BWM and Mercedes EV sales in the US as a percentage of their overall US vehicle sales are higher than Ford and GM. And most of the articles glance over the fact that the Model Y is the best selling car in the world; all inconvenient points to make.

All of the points the author made are valid and correct. One thing he didn’t mention, but ties into what he was talking about is the fear of the Chinese EVs from policy makers in Europe and the US as seen in the methods of protectionism that are being proposed.

At the end of the day, if we block Chinese EVs that are made in Mexico or we place massive tariffs on them to “protect” our industry, consumers lose. GM and Ford aren’t being helped by blocking the Chinese. If you allow the Chinese into the market, consumers will get cheaper, well made EVs and GM and Ford would have to learn how to produce cost effective EVs that still have good quality.

At the pace we’re currently on, 5 years from now, GM and Ford would continue to claim that they can’t produce a profitable EV in the 28k price range. So we need a Toyota/Honda moment like when those companies 1st entered the US and European markets. That moment brought lower prices and new competition.

I also think there are a lot of dynamics in play like the economy, political opinions, availability of chargers and of course vehicle price. Most of the more negative articles I see include misinformation.

 

[Flint302]

I believe we are just starting to see a political backlash against EVs; however, many people I come across don't realize the Mach E is electric and usually end up asking. Teslas, on the other hand, are very identifiable and will undoubtedly take the brunt of this. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Scooby24]

There is a full on onslaught of anti EV propaganda. Bots, activists and other general mouthpieces are ALL over social media comment sections any and everywhere an EV topic, vehicle, advertisement, etc is discussed. They are doing their best to kill the market. It's definitely had an impact.

 

[ChasingCoral]

I believe we are just starting to see a political backlash against EVs;

Just look at how many people didn’t want to change their lightbulbs to LEDS!

 

[Mirak]

Well I’m not a bot. It’s just a fact that due the limitations of current battery tech, EVs are not suitable or desirable for the vast majority of Americans.

They’re too expensive, they take too long to charge, and their range isn’t long enough. You can rail all you want about how people just need to “adjust their thinking” about things like range and charging speed… but they’re not gonna do that. Nor should they.

Let’s see (checks notes)… they’re also pretty terrible for the environment. The raping and pillaging just isn’t happening in your backyard.

And that’s before we even get to the massively inadequate supply of DCFC, which two years after earmarking 7.5 billion dollars to the task… still blows.

None of this is misinformation.

 

[mattyhillnepp]

Well I’m not a bot. It’s just a fact that due the limitations of current battery tech, EVs are not suitable or desirable for the vast majority of Americans.

They’re too expensive, they take too long to charge, and their range isn’t long enough. You can rail all you want about how people just need to “adjust their thinking” about things like range and charging speed… but they’re not gonna do that. Nor should they.

Let’s see (checks notes)… they’re also pretty terrible for the environment. The raping and pillaging just isn’t happening in your backyard.

And that’s before we even get to the massively inadequate supply of DCFC, which two years after earmarking 7.5 billion dollars to the task… still blows.

None of this is misinformation.

They’re definitely at a price point where it puts them out of reach for most people but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t suitable for most people. That is just propaganda

Not enough range is really just backing up propaganda.
Truth of the matter is most people aren’t driving 200+ miles a day.
Same with time to charge. Most people charge overnight.

As far as environmental concerns, mining is bad for the environment, but drilling for oil is really bad too. Constant pollution is also pretty bad. EVs aren’t perfect, but overall are better for the environment than fossil fuel vehicles.

it takes time for federal programs to get off the ground. From what I’ve read it seems a lot of the problem with federal dollars going towards DCFC chargers has to do with not being able to meet reliability requirements.
I live in Iowa, there are multiple DCFC available. Heck there’s even a DCFC that was just installed in my home town which isn’t on a major interstate and has a population under 25k people.

things need to get better, but the narratives against EV adoption are quickly falling apart. 3 years ago I wouldn’t have purchased an EV because of where I’m located. Now I can plan a trip through most of Iowa, through Nebraska, and through eastern Colorado to visit friends in Denver without considering it to be a major burden.
Do I tow, no, but most people with trucks don’t even tow, let alone all of the people with SUVs who drive to work and then drive home.

even in rural areas you aren’t driving hundreds of miles all the time, you might be 30 miles from work but you can still charge at home, and a majority of people who are driving 30+ miles for work own their homes(and those homes have electricity believe it or not)

 

[tomking29]

I believe we are just starting to see a political backlash against EVs; however, many people I come across don't realize the Mach E is electric and usually end up asking. Teslas, on the other hand, are very identifiable and will undoubtedly take the brunt of this. I hope I'm wrong.

I agree. Mostly political … and both sides are annoying.

 

[bp99]

Just look at how many people didn’t want to change their lightbulbs to LEDS!

I had no problems with LEDs once the price came down. I did have a problem with the environmentalist push for CFLs. Those things sucked -- flickering light, poor color, inability to dim, buzzing (older ones), no better lifespan and the hazard if broken. When I bought my house, I removed every single one and threw it in the trash (likely an environmental issue due to mercury). Some of the push back on LEDs is likely a holdover from the stupid push of CFLs (an inferior product with more issues than solved) and the continued insertion of politics in how we light our homes.

If you build a better product at an equivalent price point, people will adopt it. If you use politics (and/or elitism) to push/mandate something that sucks, people will push back, and likely continue to do so even if it eventually stops sucking. Nothing kills adoption more than politicizing it. Good products will sell themselves.

With BEVs, those pushing the hardest need to admit to the problems that BEVs have. They're not a perfect replacement for ICE yet. There are many use cases they will not work for right now (my in-laws for instance have several miles of gravel roads to get to the highway and are over 90 miles from things like grocery stores and a hospital. Winter brings many feet of snow. Long power outages are not uncommon. They also grow the food you eat). Traveling can be a pain. People should not need to be told 'You did it wrong, use these three apps to carefully plan your trip'. If you want to evangelize BEVs, focus on the positives. Admit the negatives. Honesty is respected. There are plenty of people for which BEVs are a great alternative for today. Admit they're not yet for everybody. The worst thing you can do for adoption is to force people that they will not yet work for in to one. Their impression will forever be colored negative when their car doesn't fit their daily needs. All or nothing mentalities are not practical nor are they enduring to people.

 

[Scooby24]

Well I’m not a bot. It’s just a fact that due the limitations of current battery tech, EVs are not suitable or desirable for the vast majority of Americans.

They’re too expensive, they take too long to charge, and their range isn’t long enough. You can rail all you want about how people just need to “adjust their thinking” about things like range and charging speed… but they’re not gonna do that. Nor should they.

Let’s see (checks notes)… they’re also pretty terrible for the environment. The raping and pillaging just isn’t happening in your backyard.

And that’s before we even get to the massively inadequate supply of DCFC, which two years after earmarking 7.5 billion dollars to the task… still blows.

None of this is misinformation.

And yet, when a new ICE vehicle is advertised on social media, I don't see the comment sections filled with claims of oil fields destroying the landscape of the middle east, or how the gasoline used to fill it can never be recovered as a finite resource, or how it will be contributing to the co2 levels through the life of the vehicle. Or how when the car's life is over it will just be scrapped as its recyclable materials are so few and not valuable. Or how there is no alternative fuel source like the sun to help further reduce the environment impact.

Isn't that something?

Remind me again, how much are we subsidizing the fossil fuel industry...annually?

It's absolutely, without question, politicized. The flaws inherent in current BEVs are understood across the aisle, but there is one side that's discussing the concerns in a productive way, and the other side has an agenda.

 

[Glen Boise]

We are in the second stage of deploying a new technology. The first stage was the "early adopters" who dealt with very low mileage cars and little or no infrastructure. The second stage has decent cars which meet some people's needs at prices some people are willing to pay and adequate infrastructure for most trips.
They all need to get better. Many of you have horror stories about inadequate infrastructure especially out in the "boonies". It is getting better. It seems everybody and their brother is coming up with better batteries and installing more chargers. Needless to say we are seeing growing pains like lengthy back orders for transformers needed to use the chargers and car makers adding building capacity only to face up and downs in demand like we see today.
At the same time, the old technology supporters are defending their investments. So we see them feeding us with all sorts of horror stories about the failings of EVs and that it will just be a big fade once people come to their senses.
There is the matter of the better energy efficiency of BEVs compared to ICEs. Did I hear correctly that the typical ICE uses at best some 40 to 44%(?) of the energy released by exploding gasoline and that the typical BEV is some 80% energy efficient? Greater efficiency is a winner. Just look at the railroad transition from steam to diesel-electric locomotives.
When we hear about the wonders of hydrogen, ask about their wide spread infrastructure needs. EVs have the advantage that we piggy-back on the existing electric infrastructure of the existing "grid". The grid may need beefing up. EVs do not need an entirely new infrastructure as you would need for hydrogen vehicles.

 

[mccdeuce]

Well I’m not a bot. It’s just a fact that due the limitations of current battery tech, EVs are not suitable or desirable for the vast majority of Americans.

suitable for majority of Americans - yes

desirable for most Americans - no….

“The first four months of 2022 showed that 72.9 percent of all car purchased were either SUVs or pickups.” And add to that the majority of Americans drive less than 40miles a day.

I have plenty of friends that have said they won’t buy a BEV till it has a 400mile range in cold weather. And that vehicle better be the size of an explorer despite them never attaching a tow or going off highway…. My absolute favorite are my friends that have jeep wranglers for driving only on highway.

So far me it is a mentality issue. An entitlement issue. It’s why we can never have reliable public transportation either. We love our cars and our independence that it provides.

 

[Mirak]

Remind me again, how much are we subsidizing the fossil fuel industry...annually?

I don’t know. How much? And why didn’t democrats stop those subsidies when they controlled all branches of government? Or are they in on the conspiracy, too?

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