The EV Naysayers

[Mach1E]

Man it drives me crazy when someone says PHEVs are the better option, they are the worst of both worlds in most situations. You still have oil changes, still have fuel ups, still have battery packs but now they aren't in a format that is as easy to repair/recycle as the larger packs and often take up cargo space in some capacity (not always, it's definitely better these days on that front).

We have owned PHEVs, they had a point where they were nice to have. But all they end up showing people is how little you need that engine. Our first PHEV was a C-Max Energi and it took my wife 3+ months to get through that tiny I think 9 gallon fuel tank enough to warrant filling up. The kicker to that was most of that fuel consumption wasn't because the battery ran out either, it was from the car's required "maintenance" engine runs which it did automatically. It's what pushed us to try a Focus Electric and eventually the Mach-e. We were just still doing maintenance and environmentally unfriendly oil changes and the rest just to avoid the couple times per year we might need a DCFC.

I get PHEVs like the RAMCharger for towing situations, but day-to-day, not so much. Plus they find that many people end up not charging their PHEVs as much as they should, leading to more waste on the battery end as you just have people effectively driving around a huge battery they are mostly not using.

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...t-plug-in-so-often-and-epa-is-adjusting-to-it

As for the other stuff like battery mining and the like, that is improving constantly while methods of extracting oil like fracking is only getting worse.

As for charging times, unless you road trip monthly, you are almost always coming out ahead with a BEV. We have had the Mach-e since September 2022, and while I only got this F-150 PowerBoost (Hybrid) in July 2023, I had another F-150 PB before it. If you take the amount of time I have spent driving to and filling up at gas stations since September 2022 for the hybrid and compare it to the amount of time we have spent at DCFC with the Mach-e, oh man, I have spent WAAAAYYYY more time "filling up" that F-150, even though the F-150s had less than half the miles put on them in that time.

People get hung up on individual fill up timing, but not frequency/annual timing. Even if each fill up is only 5 minutes, doing that every week or every other week adds up quick. Blowing well past what time we spent on two road trips in the MME in that time.

BEVs aren't perfect, and the infrastructure obviously has maturing to do. But the Pros/Cons comparison is far better for the BEV than a new ICE or PHEV, with the exception of those living in apartments/condos and don't have charging access. That is still a big issue, no arguments there, I am talking just for those that are considering both and have home charging options.

PHEV is a compromise, but it’s a needed compromise.

Either that or you need to own 2 cars.

But either way, the PHeV solves more problems than it causes for mass adoptions.

I would rather get a 15 minute oil change once a year than DC charge…….ever.

Sponsored

 

[Exordium01]

Everybody complains about gas taxes, but gas is sold at close to a 50% discount due to federal subsidies on the production side. It’s taxed more in Europe, but the biggest difference is the lack of subsidies. There it goes for the same sticker price for 1/4 the amount (Liter vs gallon).

Battery recycling is also moving quickly and lithium is an extremely abundant resource. Extraction methods are going to need to change.

Also, there are some perks to the current state of charging. It’s a great excuse to go sit in the car listening to podcasts while visiting the in-laws.

 

[Mach1E]

And a general social mentality that uses trains/mass transit more, rather than our rugged American individualism that drives our need to have our own seperate car.

Nah.

People own cars for the same reasons they use mass transit-

Time and money.

Both can save both depending on where you live.

But living in New York City vs Wyoming…….the formula for time and money is very different.

 

[Vulnox]

PHEV is a compromise, but it’s a needed compromise.

Either that or you need to own 2 cars.

But either way, the PHeV solves more problems than it causes for mass adoptions.

I would rather get a 15 minute oil change once a year than DC charge…….ever.

Ah yeah, I should say, if a single vehicle household I definitely believe PHEV is better than just flat out ICE. My in-laws have a Lincoln Corsair PHEV and love it. Now, I still think they somewhat prove my side of things a bit since they went almost five months on the tank of gas the dealer filled it with because they just do short trips to see the grandkids, doc appointments, groceries, etc, and the battery has been enough.

But, they also did do a lot more road trips for many years, including drives to Florida and Colorado (where their other kids are). But health has changed their ability to do those long drives safely. So while I think at this point something like a Chevy Bolt would be about perfect in terms of size/range/cost, for most people that are still doing those cross country drives a few times per year and only have one vehicle the PHEV option is not a terrible one.

I don't mind the DCFC as long as its a decent place to stop. I am maybe spoiled on that front because as I have mentioned before, so far our only stops needed for DCFC on our road trips were at locations that had fast food options. If all I had was a WalMart/Meijer parking lot, well...

 

[superdave80]

You see tens of thousands of vehicles that serve no purpose other than a commute. I see (likely) tens of thousands of vehicles that commute 95% of the time, but their owners still occasionally want to get out of the city. And I think I’m probably right. People buy a car for all use cases.

And if the owners of these cars really never leave leave the city, as you infer, how many of these city dwellers own a garage where they can easily charge overnight?

Your suppositions just don’t hold up. This is what I’m trying to open your (collectively) eyes to.

I know this may shock you, but I routinely leave my city/county/state all the time with my Mach-E. It has served 100% of my driving needs.

 

[4sallypat]

EVs work better in Europe for the same reasons trains work better in Europe.

Much higher population density and shorter distances to travel.

Yes, this is true, but did you notice more Europeans are slimmer, trim and seem healthier because of all the walking between destination & train / metro stations ?

I noticed we did a lot of walking in Europe - instead of driving around in our cars...

 

[RKinWA]

This is a great thread, especially for people on the edge of going full EV, as it presents most of the arguments and points of view.

My own situation really made my switch to EV perfect, and didn't make any sense at the same time (from a cost basis point of view according to my friends). I work at home, take a drive on the weekends when the weather is nice (between 100-300 miles), and once every 3-4 years go on a longer road trip of around 800-1500 miles.

When my friend was trying to convince me to go with an EV (he's a Tesla fanboy), I kept focusing on the long road trip every 3-4 years as my excuse to stay ICE, logic finally won out and I started shopping. Of course this was at the height of the price bubble, so friends tried using logic on me to say "You already have a good vehicle you hardly use, why spend 70k on an EV you will also hardly use?" I had different reasons for wanting it, and once I decide I want something, logic be damned, I'm getting it, plus I am in a position where cost isn't as big a factor, where most of my other friends have families and have to be more reasonable with their funds.

I did think about the hybrid route first, but other than slightly more MPG, that made no sense to me, so I started looking at PHEVs. As I said, I was focusing solely on the use case that once every 3-4 years I might take a long road trip, and once I got over that silly thinking and started thinking of how I would actually use it, a PHEV really made no sense either, so I started focusing on EVs only. Back in March, choices were more limited than they are now, and prices at their highest, so after shopping around and test driving everything, I fell in love with the MME and took the plunge.

All my friends that have gone on drives with me now all say basically the same thing, "I love the Mach-e, but it's too expensive for me, but if the prices come down I might really be tempted." These are the same EV naysayers from March. And several of them actually have taken test drives in EVs at this point and are seriously considering it.

Throughout history, any time there has been new technology, there has always been fear of change, naysayers, and pushback. I'm sure when the first cars made their appearance back in the late 1800s it was the same. Same with electricity, indoor plumbing, airplanes, computers, LED lights, etc. You can't force people to change, they have to decide to do it for it to be accepted widespread. There are so many new battery technologies being worked on, and the upcoming switch to NACS, I really think by 2026 the majority of people will be making the push to EVs.

 

[AhardFSU]

I know this may shock you, but I routinely leave my city/county/state all the time with my Mach-E. It has served 100% of my driving needs.

Well....well....you're in a bubble (i'm joking). No, but seriously you leaving your city/county/state with your EV is normal. Now, obvi we all know that you can't leave your county/city/state and go off roading in a Mach E. It's not made for that, but other than that, most should be able to do what you do. And yes there are all sorts of things that some people do with their ICE vehicles that may not be suitable for EVs to do, but basic car things like driving 200 or 300 miles is doable. And yes there are people and there will always be people who live in charging deserts where they can't leave their county or city in an EV. If that's you or someone you know....don't get an EV; it's not right for you.

Now whether someone wants to spend any time longer than 10 mins to charge an EV while on a road trip on is question that will produce a variety of answers amongst the people contemplating getting an EV. And saying no you don't want to do that doesn't make you bad. And saying that you're ok waiting to charge doesn't make you some weird person. The number of people saying yes is growing and will continue to grow.

 

[Otto klub]

I know this may shock you, but I routinely leave my city/county/state all the time with my Mach-E. It has served 100% of my driving needs.

LOL. I have lived in this house for 35 years. I have never worked in this county. For thirty years I worked one or two counties north or one county east. I worked in many cities within and outside this state. It is a way of life in many areas. All the same job.
I am glad your EV works for you.

 

[AhardFSU]

You can't force people to change, they have to decide to do it for it to be accepted widespread. There are so many new battery technologies being worked on, and the upcoming switch to NACS, I really think by 2026 the majority of people will be making the push to EVs.

I think alot of "truthtellers" (including some of the people who have EVs) like to say that people who enjoy their EV are trying to push it on the masses whom aren't ready for EVs. I don't know if that's true all the time, but as you said you can't force someone to do something. We are transitioning to EVs. Just bc a good percentage the US pop doesn't want or aren't ready for EVs at this point in time doesn't mean that it'll always be that way. So being a "truthteller" at this point is kind of easy if you leave out of the part about this being a transition...and that there are ups and downs during transitions......and that major technology transitions don't happen overnight.

 

[ctenidae]

I would be curious to see how trains/mass transit would work in the US in the way some believe when they say our car ownership is due to individualism.

Maybe if the entire US had developed differently and 90+% of the US population was within five distinct population centers, but it's just so huge and spread out, much of which happened a couple centuries before any of us were born.

That early development is what set our current position, I think. We'd have to change our entire mindset, plus build a boatload of infrastructure (mostly through someone's backyard) and adjust how we feel about being around other people. Not an easy lift- simpler just to install more EV chargers.

 

[Vulnox]

Setting aside most of the detractor arguments which are based largely on "what-ifs" and "whatabouts", it seems that most BEV owners that take the dive are satisfied. I believe this is the strongest indicator that while someone can say "well what about when they leave the city?" as if it's a death sentence, clearly most owners are finding it totally doable and it isn't a negative that overcomes their overall ownership experience.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/pr...ectric-vehicle-experience-evx-ownership-study

Above is the 2022 Survey, useful because when you look at the 2023 survey:
https://www.jdpower.com/business/pr...ectric-vehicle-experience-evx-ownership-study

Practically every metric for positive experience has improved.

If these BEVs were really so hard to live with, this bubble would have burst long ago. Again, there are certainly issues, especially around DCFC reliability and upfront cost. But it at least appears that for most owners these aren't hitting them too hard, which so far matches our BEV experience. We haven't had trouble charging at EA stations on our couple road trips and our up front cost was in line with the ICE equivalent vehicle we were considering.

Before someone takes what I said and twists it right around, this is NOT me saying that nobody experiences EA issues, or lines, or whatever. More an indicator that maybe your own "bubble" of experience doesn't always translate into everyone elses.

 

[phil]

Nay.

 

[Vulnox]

That early development is what set our current position, I think. We'd have to change our entire mindset, plus build a boatload of infrastructure (mostly through someone's backyard) and adjust how we feel about being around other people. Not an easy lift- simpler just to install more EV chargers.

Yeah that's about where I landed with it. I am a big supporter of finding smart ways to improve public transit, I just hit a wall when someone indicates all of the countries transportation woes would disappear with more public transit. It's one thing to replace gas stations with EV charging stations, it's another to say we need to potentially abandon most suburbs and rural towns not devoted to farming and condense everyone into cities in a way that makes public transportation a larger impact.

I wish it were the case we could do more in the near future. I can't stress how much I hate that for all the traveling we do around the US, every seemingly nice area is scarred by concrete roads and concrete buildings and just dull and ugly infrastructure to support cars. But whenever I think of how we could keep the towns and destinations but lose half the cars on the road it just seems the only solution would be flying cars at this point.

 

[AhardFSU]

Setting aside most of the detractor arguments which are based largely on "what-ifs" and "whatabouts", it seems that most BEV owners that take the dive are satisfied. I believe this is the strongest indicator that while someone can say "well what about when they leave the city?" as if it's a death sentence, clearly most owners are finding it totally doable and it isn't a negative that overcomes their overall ownership experience.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/pr...ectric-vehicle-experience-evx-ownership-study

Above is the 2022 Survey, useful because when you look at the 2023 survey:
https://www.jdpower.com/business/pr...ectric-vehicle-experience-evx-ownership-study

Practically every metric for positive experience has improved.

If these BEVs were really so hard to live with, this bubble would have burst long ago. Again, there are certainly issues, especially around DCFC reliability and upfront cost. But it at least appears that for most owners these aren't hitting them too hard, which so far matches our BEV experience. We haven't had trouble charging at EA stations on our couple road trips and our up front cost was in line with the ICE equivalent vehicle we were considering.

Before someone takes what I said and twists it right around, this is NOT me saying that nobody experiences EA issues, or lines, or whatever. More an indicator that maybe your own "bubble" of experience doesn't always translate into everyone elses.

There will always be cases where an EV doesn't work for someone. Whether it's charging or towing or whatever. Once you stipulate that, where it does work for other folks becomes a matter of when they decide to transition to EVs.

Sponsored