PaaK seems to require cellular service

[generaltso]

...also, hopefully once "Digital Key" gets implemented more widely this also becomes a non-issue especially if this is implemented at the phone's OS level instead of in the app level to keep the app from getting put to sleep/killed.

But that isn't likely to be an option for existing MMEs since the required NFC readers aren't there.

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[CHeil402]

But that isn't likely to be an option for existing MMEs since the required NFC readers aren't there.

I was more referring to version 2 and 3 that add Bluetooth and ultra wideband (UWB). That's probably why they didn't adopt version 1 since Ford is a member of the standards committee. Version 1 only supports NFC and to be honest that's a waste of time since you have to take your phone out and tap it to the door which defeats the time savings compared to a key fob or PaaK (assuming it worked).

 

[TheVirtualTim]

I have no specifically tested it in an underground parking garage, but one of the engineers I spoke to at Ford said it does not require cell service. It uses Bluetooth between the car & phone.

With the FordPass app you can do things like remote-start, lock/unlock, windows up/down, etc. and you don't have to be within Bluetooth range for those to work... but they car does need network access. But PaaK is different ... you just have to be near the car.

I've had some variable sensitivity with it and have occasionally found that going into the phone and switching off the Bluetooth radio ... wait a few seconds ... then turn it back on (and for some reason on iOS it's a better idea to go into Settings -> Bluetooth to do this rather than toggle it in Control Central. This seems to kill and restart Bluetooth services on the phone and reliability goes up when I do this.

Inside the car, I've found that while I can sometimes leave the phone in my pocket, it's happy if the phone is near the center console (or on the the charging pad.)

 

[generaltso]

I was more referring to version 2 and 3 that add Bluetooth and ultra wideband (UWB). That's probably why they didn't adopt version 1 since Ford is a member of the standards committee. Version 1 only supports NFC and to be honest that's a waste of time since you have to take your phone out and tap it to the door which defeats the time savings compared to a key fob or PaaK (assuming it worked).

I suspect the current MME doesn't have the proper hardware for UWB either. Everything I've read implies that Bluetooth LE will be used in conjunction with UWB, but I'm not sure that it will ever work with just BLE if the hardware doesn't support UWB.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

Anybody noticed a difference in Android versions 10 vs 11? My hub's pixel is on 11 and he's had zero issues setting up and adding PaaK. My Duo's still on Android 10 and has had very lackluster results even establishing PaaK. I got a cute keychain for the fob. I'll be taking it with me.

someone else on here - @JamieGeek maybe - also has a Duo. So now we know the two people that bought one.

?

 

[Griddlez]

I guess it needs to talk to the net to see if your downloaded key is still valid. Someone could get access to the car one time, never let their phone connect to the net again, and then be able to access your car forever. If that was the "net-connection needed" idea I guess it makes sense. But obviously there should be a time-out window for this when a key is still valid after being disconnected from the net, be it a few hours or a few days.

I've had the most success getting the phone key to work when I open the Ford app fresh, making sure it loads up fine, then walking out to my car right then or up until 5-10 minutes. Don't need the screen on or anything (it can be black screen) but as long as I have connected to the app fresh recently (the app being closed prior and reopening it) it seems to work every time.

 

[JamieGeek]

someone else on here - @JamieGeek maybe - also has a Duo. So now we know the two people that bought one.

?

Yup have a Duo here @sambastang . I don't use it much for PAAK as I always have the fob in my pocket.

It seems to reliably pull up android auto and the few times I've tried to use with with PAAK have been 50/50 or so: Sometimes it works after a few seconds, other times I have to go into the Ford Pass app and unlock the car.

 

[CHeil402]

I guess it needs to talk to the net to see if your downloaded key is still valid. Someone could get access to the car one time, never let their phone connect to the net again, and then be able to access your car forever. If that was the "net-connection needed" idea I guess it makes sense. But obviously there should be a time-out window for this when a key is still valid after being disconnected from the net, be it a few hours or a few days.

I've had the most success getting the phone key to work when I open the Ford app fresh, making sure it loads up fine, then walking out to my car right then or up until 5-10 minutes. Don't need the screen on or anything (it can be black screen) but as long as I have connected to the app fresh recently (the app being closed prior and reopening it) it seems to work every time.

Pulling back on my work experience in public transit, several fare collection systems with fare cards on vehicles work this way. They need to still work in the absence of cell service, so they store a transaction log until they get reliable service. Obviously it would be possible to game the system and get away with a fare card that actually doesn't have any value on it anymore, but the impact of not accepting fares without service outweighs the risk of loss of fares. When the vehicle next gets cell service, it will update its list of 'bad' cards... so yes, there should be a timeout associated with it to allow it to work offline.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Cell service to use PaaK is unexpected. Must need an internet connection for some reason. I looked at the system diagrams and it appears to use the same components as RKE....that is how the car knows the phone is nearby. Based on your findings, there are more requirements then the mere proximity of the phone.

Yes, I suspect there is some background security. I'll bet it's in the FordPass app rather than the car but that's only a guess.

 

[ChasingCoral]

The app tells you if you’re connected to the car via Bluetooth....and it often loses that connection. I wonder if that’s the culprit here, not cell service?

Doubt it. The problem happened very reliably where there was no cell service. No reason bluetooth would have a problem out there.

 

[ChasingCoral]

I just put my phone into airplane mode to test this. For a good minute it showed the blue screen with the Ford logo. But it finally loaded into the screen with the remote controls, and it connected and was able to open the car.

I do have an android so maybe its just not handling that properly on the iOS side.

Good test but it may require a prolonged period with no cell connection, not just a few minutes.

 

[ChasingCoral]

I have no specifically tested it in an underground parking garage, but one of the engineers I spoke to at Ford said it does not require cell service. It uses Bluetooth between the car & phone.

With the FordPass app you can do things like remote-start, lock/unlock, windows up/down, etc. and you don't have to be within Bluetooth range for those to work... but they car does need network access. But PaaK is different ... you just have to be near the car.

I've had some variable sensitivity with it and have occasionally found that going into the phone and switching off the Bluetooth radio ... wait a few seconds ... then turn it back on (and for some reason on iOS it's a better idea to go into Settings -> Bluetooth to do this rather than toggle it in Control Central. This seems to kill and restart Bluetooth services on the phone and reliability goes up when I do this.

Inside the car, I've found that while I can sometimes leave the phone in my pocket, it's happy if the phone is near the center console (or on the the charging pad.)

Agreed. PaaK uses Bluetooth. However, the FordPass app or the car may use a server-based security that needs some sort of digital security key coming from a server. It may communicate that key as a part of the PaaK handshake.

 

[agoldman]

Does the PAAK feature work at all if the Ford Pas app is not running/open on your Phone?

 

[benk016]

Good test but it may require a prolonged period with no cell connection, not just a few minutes.

Yeah, and I don't have anywhere to test the car having no service. Maybe I can find a big faraday bag to pull my car into. lol.

I just suspect that the app doesn't handle not being able to communicate with the server well. Which makes me hopeful that they can fix it pretty easily. Just another annoyance with PAAK.

 

[ARK]

@ChasingCoral thanks as always for your detailed write-ups. Can you say what your experience with the back-up code has been, i.e. any particular reason why would you want to have the key fob with you now based on your experience instead of leaning on the back-up code when PaaK isn't working?

Did you find that the back-up code also seems to require a cell connection by the Mach-E to work?

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