Senate Bill Deal to Expand EV Tax Credits (7/27/2022)

[Caulk-E]

Yeah I thought about that too.

But what about the ones even worse, that would be dumped for salvage? Seems ripe for abuse. A dealer would just "sell" it to their brother-in-law for $1 and pocket $4000 between them.

Because it’s a point-of-sale credit, it makes it harder to pocket the $4,000. That means the dealer would have to cut a check to the seller. And if you ever been to a dealer, they don’t cut checks for anyone.

Sponsored

 

[ab13]

Yeah, kinda what I’ve been saying all along.

Net result on prices? Even. Unless you are upper middle class or more, then you pay more.

Because of the above, net result on the environment? Even. If prices don’t change, nothing is gained.

More money to corporations and more money from corporate taxes. Even. Just shifts who is paying and who is getting.

This is why I think it’s a “waste.” It does nothing but create a big wealth transfer. And it’s mostly $$ from everyone (taxes on corps = higher prices) and more $$ to the car manufacturers.

So all consumers lose $$, the planet gains nothing, some low income car buyers pay the same price, high income car buyers pay a higher price and car manufacturers get billions.

No thanks!

There is one make thing it does besides transfer money around. The other main piece is the North America production and content clauses. In the short term it limits competition and pushes companies long term to assemble in North America with high domestic content

 

[kindofblue]

If the purpose is to reduce oil consumption and carbon emissions the focus should be on PHEVs. The average commute is around 25 miles, and most private trips are much shorter. If you get a lot of people in vehicles capable of 50-60 miles with electricity power it will reduce the oil consumption far quicker than a few people on full EV.

There are a lot of benefits going down the PHEV route: no urgency for charging networks, resources would go further (a PHEV only needs a 20-25 kw battery), peoples anxiety around lack of charging is mooted.

Have a tax rebate (not credit) but cap the vehicle price to under $40,000. That will excelerate the shift to PHEV and EV far faster.

Our 2017 Volt has 50k miles on it and with a 45-50 mi EV only range, our lifetime mpg average is 250+. I can count on one hand the number of times I've needed to get gas for it in the last 2 years. Unfortunately the new PHEVs on the market have far less EV only range.

 

[generaltso]

Our 2017 Volt has 50k miles on it and with a 45-50 mi EV only range, our lifetime mpg average is 250+. I can count on one hand the number of times I've needed to get gas for it in the last 2 years. Unfortunately the new PHEVs on the market have far less EV only range.

My wife gets 50 miles of EV range in her RAV4 Prime (in summer). It’s EPA rated for 42.

 

[MG101]

I'm not scouring 20 pages to find the quote but in regards to this bill benefiting corporations more than the individual; yeah of course it does because corporations are only motivated by $$$. They don't care what the demand is only how to make a profit from it.
The Mach e exists because model 3 sales exploded..end of story. The legacy automakers saw there was money to be made so of course they jumped in. Had Tesla failed or kept bleeding money Ford and all the others would have noped out and been happy making their crappy compliance ev's
Very few corporations have sack to innovate for the sake of it. Most have be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.q

 

[Gloff]

I'm not scouring 20 pages to find the quote but in regards to this bill benefiting corporations more than the individual; yeah of course it does because corporations are only motivated by $$$. They don't care what the demand is only how to make a profit from it.
The Mach e exists because model 3 sales exploded..end of story. The legacy automakers saw there was money to be made so of course they jumped in. Had Tesla failed or kept bleeding money Ford and all the others would have noped out and been happy making their crappy compliance ev's
Very few corporations have sack to innovate for the sake of it. Most have be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.q

I don't think you realize how long the development cycle on vehicle is for a legacy manufacturer. The Mach E was in development before the Model 3 was formally announced. Ford has been ahead of the curve with EV/Hybrids for a long time.

Remember the whole Model E thing between Tesla and Ford: https://www.autonews.com/article/20...t-said-no-when-musk-tried-to-put-the-e-in-sex

That was in 2014.

 

[dbsb3233]

After checking around some, it's appearing PHEVs would get the full $7500 credit with this. Since batteries are still the primary supply chain limiting factor, we could see a big move into PHEVs. There's a number of them already in the $25k-$35k range. Get a $7500 taxpayer subsidy off that and it's downright cheap. It also gets manufactures around most of the emissions quota fines.

Of course, if this bill became law those MSRP's would undoubtedly go up rather precipitously.

 

[Mach1E]

I actually think that the argument "manufacturers will increase the price right away to take advantage of the higher demand created by any incentive" was more true 5-8 years ago, when Tesla didn't have any real competition. Today, if Ford jacks the price of the Mach-E, there are at least 5 other cars in the "same" category (EV6, Ioniq5, GV, ID.4, and Model Y, I could be forgetting a few. Maybe the Volvo C40 Recharge). Same thing with the F150 Lightning, Rivian is already here and a bunch more is coming.
I think the demand will explode, but the income limits, the car price limits, and the competition will control eventual abuses. Call me naive.

I don’t think you realize that you’re saying the same thing:

Eventually consumers pay “market price.”

In other words- the new tax credits won’t lower the price to the consumer.

 

[Mach1E]

Many large companies have been buying stock back hand over fist in recent years. That only benefits a small number of people. Taxing corporate profits and investing in infrastructure not only benefits the general population it benefits the companies in the long run.

It benefits….. and hurts at the same time.

None of this is “free.”

You can’t increase the cost/taxes without it increasing the price to the consumer.

The downside is that the government is a horribly inefficient way of moving money from one place to another.

It’s like donating money to a charity……. That has 80% overhead costs.

But either way, this isn’t the infrastructure bill, that was the last one. If you notice, not much opposition to that one.

 

[generaltso]

After checking around some, it's appearing PHEVs would get the full $7500 credit with this. Since batteries are still the primary supply chain limiting factor, we could see a big move into PHEVs. There's a number of them already in the $25k-$35k range. Get a $7500 taxpayer subsidy off that and it's downright cheap. It also gets manufactures around most of the emissions quota fines.

Of course, if this bill became law those MSRP's would undoubtedly go up rather precipitously.

Any PHEVs with a 16kWh or larger battery already qualifies for the full $7500 credit under the existing rules. But in the new plan, they'll fall under the same rules for battery assembly and mineral sourcing, so it's hard to say which ones will and won't qualify. The RAV4 Prime, for example, is only made in Japan.

 

[Mach1E]

Yeah I thought about that too.

But what about the ones even worse, that would be dumped for salvage? Seems ripe for abuse. A dealer would just "sell" it to their brother-in-law for $1 and pocket $4000 between them.

Remember cash for clunkers and the hot mess that made?

 

[Mach1E]

There is one make thing it does besides transfer money around. The other main piece is the North America production and content clauses. In the short term it limits competition and pushes companies long term to assemble in North America with high domestic content

For sure there are other agendas at play. Like the old one had the union worker restriction etc.

The made in America thing at least makes some sense. Wouldn’t make sense to spend hundreds of billions of our tax money to help subsidize workers in foreign countries.

 

[dbsb3233]

Any PHEVs with a 16kWh or larger battery already qualifies for the full $7500 credit under the existing rules. But in the new plan, they'll fall under the same rules for battery assembly and mineral sourcing, so it's hard to say which ones will and won't qualify. The RAV4 Prime, for example, is only made in Japan.

True. But with some battery packs as small as 7-10 kWh, and limited supply of batteries that qualify as subsidy-approved, I could see manufacturers prioritize putting them in PHEV packs instead. They get the (pass-thru) benefit of just one $7500 credit if they put 100 kWh into a single BEV, but they get $75,000 credit if they spread that "approved" 100 kWh across 10 PHEVs.

 

[macchiaz-o]

Looking through some old posts, there are quite a few people that say the packs are assembled at the MME plant in Mexico. But I haven‘t been able to find a trail to the evidence of that. If this bill passes, I have no doubt that it will become very public where the battery packs are assembled and where the minerals are sourced.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...engineering-friends-in-mexico.1100/post-41729

@hybrid2bev , I know that’s an old post, but do you recall where you saw that the battery packs are assembled in Cuautitlán?

The packs are assembled in Cuautitlán. Here is one video where you can see a little bit of it, and also the press release describing a bit of the process.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/mustang-mach-e-presentation-inside-mexico-plant.1928/

This makes sense to me. The pouch cells can be more efficiently palleted and shipped in their rectangular forms. The structure of the battery pack can be efficiently stamped and filled at CSAP. Some of the other components inside of the pack are manufactured in Mexico, for example the contactors on the HVBJB are made in Mexico, if I recall correctly from photos we've all seen.

Sponsored