DCFC in America - it’s falling apart

[Blue highway]

Actually, on my trip to Florida from NJ I ran into EA techs at 2 different EA sites - both with poor ratings in plugshare. Talking to both techs, they visit those sites constantly because the make of stations at them were crappy and they constantly break down. The one guy said he was at the site every few weeks.

As the video you apparently didn't watch carefully pointed out, the equipment used so far has mostly been cobbled together and repurposed and is simply not good enough or properly tested. In Europe things are much better because governments have pushed the issues and purpose built equipment that has been tested rigorously is being deployed. While Kyle also tried to intimate that EA would rather not have anyone charge, that is a cynical and inaccurate - particularly since shortly after that he talks about how much the CEO of EA wants to succeed in his mission. EVgo and the other charging companies in the US are private companies NOT created by the VW fine and thus are intending to make a profit.

We are on the early days of a highly transformative technological shift, and it will be bloody. If left to the devices of the free market alone then most of the country would be ignored and fall behind. FDR, Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt, and many other politicians recognized that the role of government is to step in where capitalism cannot go in order to accomplish what is necessary. Otherwise, large swaths of this country would not have electrical, telephone, paved routes of commerce, or many other crucial pieces of infrastructure.

But, yeah it's all the politician's fault that the charging infrastructure is messed up.

Ever notice that Tesla chargers work?
Ever notice that between 1 in 3 to 6 in 10 EA, EV Go, Volta etc. stations don't work? The media has.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/pr...-vehicle-experience-evx-public-charging-study

When these networks are set up from the beginning as a business as opposed to a mission... the business planning needed to sustain them goes in. When they are set up as a mandate or a mission, they fail to think around corners. So yeah, repeating the government approach of handing out money to get started but not setting these new chargers up as a sustainable business will result, as it has up to now, with non-maintained crumby infrastructure.

Assuming you can mandate a level of equipment maintenance for a failing business is idiotic. When they are not making payroll, they are not going to fix dead or sick chargers.

I'm in favor of the government investing in DCFC... but the missing secret sauce is requiring a long term business plan for the charging infrastructure being set up. None of the state plans that I have read have this.

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[Mirak]

....in England and Europe. If our electricity rates looked like theirs, our DCFC stations might be profitable too.

How would more expensive electricity make DCFC more profitable?

 

[AZBill]

GM had zero interest in building a charger network until the government offered to pay them to install them. I hope I'm wrong, but that doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy that they care about maintaining them.

Not true, they teamed with EVGO before all of this and just opened a new site in Phoenix, with four 350kw units. Here is an article about it from over a year ago, where GM was getting tired of the delays.

https://electrek.co/2021/05/27/evgo...ons-for-gm-grounds-for-agreement-termination/

 

[timbop]

Tesla's superchargers did not come out of the gate nearly as reliable as they are now. Tesla also greatly benefits from a closed system like Apple, as opposed to the open architecture of CCS whose specs are interpreted by dozens of companies who invariably misinterpret nuances in those specs. I've been a software engineer in the telecom and television business for 25 years, and I can absolutely assure that it happens all the time. Why do you think Apple has always had the reputation of "it just works" whereas PC's running Windows have the well deserved reputation of being complicated and unreliable?

Assuming you can mandate a level of equipment maintenance for a failing business is idiotic.

I'm not sure to whom you are referring, but I've never said that one could mandate it - I've espoused the opposite position. As far as I can tell, your stance is that the government needs to do that:

I'm in favor of the government investing in DCFC... but the missing secret sauce is requiring a long term business plan for the charging infrastructure being set up

Forgive me, but that sounds like the government making business decisions and effectively mandating maintenance as part of the business plan.

 

[Mirak]

I used to have a bank of three free public L2 chargers a block from my office. These were not in a retail area. Stuff was antiquated - at least 5 years old. Then it became two when one failed last year. Then the second failed a month ago and we were down to one. This morning I arrived and all three had been removed. So much for free charging - now I’m going to have to pay my residential rates to charge at home. Life just isn’t fair, you know?

I think everyone would agree that in order to make installing and maintaining DCFC profitable without massive and ongoing government subsidies, the price and/or charging speed need to skyrocket. At 30-45mins per charge and only capacity for 4-6 vehicles at a time, you just cannot dispense enough juice to even come close to profitability at current rates.

The tech is the choke point. Charging speed (which really comes down to battery tech) just isn’t ready to replace gasoline.

I hope you all also realize that the billions of dollars this current government has “invested” in charging infrastructure will be largely wasted. That is the way it always is.

 

[SWO]

Not true, they teamed with EVGO before all of this and just opened a new site in Phoenix, with four 350kw units. Here is an article about it from over a year ago, where GM was getting tired of the delays.

https://electrek.co/2021/05/27/evgo...ons-for-gm-grounds-for-agreement-termination/

NEVI was announced in February 2022.

GM announced the EVGO/Flying J/Pilot 2000- fast charger plan just last month. Before that, "Ultium 360" was more or less what Ford has done in Fordpass (only not including EA).

 

[randyja]

Is Rivian part of the ford charging network?

 

[ChasingCoral]

Fortunately, on our road trip this weekend in the Lightning pulling a trailer all of the chargers were working and available:
EA Hagerstown, MD Walmart 2 150kW, 2 350kW
Chargepoint / Potomac Edison, Friendsville, MD 2 shared 120kW (came here twice)
Chargepoint / Potomac Edison, Hancock, MD 2 shared 120kW

 

[RickMachE]

Is Rivian part of the ford charging network?

No.

Greenlots, EA, EVConnect, EVGO, Flo, Chargepoint, and SemaCharge

https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/features/ev-charging/blueoval-charge-network/

 

[Sneezy]

NY's plan looks pretty nice to be honest. Great locations leveraging the existing thruway rest stops, which have all of the facilities you want at an EV charging location.

When they work. I visited one is Syracuse and the entire station was down due to maintenance.
But, I agree, NY somehow has managed to get it rolling.

 

[silverelan]

GM had zero interest in building a charger network until the government offered to pay them to install them. I hope I'm wrong, but that doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy that they care about maintaining them.

You are incorrect. GM announced $750,000,000 deal with EVgo before the NEVI program came about. GM and EVgo are also planning on using NEVI funds for the Pilot/Flying J stations. It’s not clear to me if the NEVI funds are included or separate from the “GM Agreement” that EVgo has contracted.

see page 27 of EVgo’s Nov 2021 SEC filing 10-Q.
https://investors.evgo.com/financials/sec-filings/default.aspx

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/42660...nvestment-to-roughly-750-million-through-2025

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/14/gm-...-build-network-of-us-highway-ev-chargers.html

 

[Mathington]

It’s for YouTube revenue

Plus, a lot of people, including myself, enjoy just leaving the video running and listening to them like a podcast or longer format content.

The videos being so long also helps to increase YouTube revenue, as already mentioned by @Logal727

 

[Mathington]

I don't begrudge the stupid rich... but the complete lack of self awareness from Kyles family is off putting.

I agree that it can be a bit alienating when he is talking about which $100k+ car he will be buying but that is just his own personal experience, which Kyle asked for. I think the overall considerations on the network and charging still apply however.

It doesn't matter if you are looking to buy a $30kEV,$50k EV or a $100K EV, the reliability of the charging network an EV can use is still one of the most important factors when buying if you are looking to do lots of travel away from home.

 

[SWO]

You are incorrect. GM announced $750,000,000 deal with EVgo before the NEVI program came about. GM and EVgo are also planning on using NEVI funds for the Pilot/Flying J stations. It’s not clear to me if the NEVI funds are included or separate from the “GM Agreement” that EVgo has contracted.

see page 27 of EVgo’s Nov 2021 SEC filing 10-Q.
https://investors.evgo.com/financials/sec-filings/default.aspx

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/42660...nvestment-to-roughly-750-million-through-2025

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/14/gm-...-build-network-of-us-highway-ev-chargers.html

That was the plan to install L2 chargers, and it was an "up to" dollar figure....basically worthless. This thread is about DCFC. They had no DCFC network plans that I'm aware of until the government would pay them to install chargers.

https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2021/oct/1026-ultium-charger.html

They said in the announcement that it was using federal money. They'd be fools not to:

GM and Pilot Company designed this program to combine private investments alongside intended government grant and utility programs to help reduce range anxiety and significantly close the gap in long-distance EV charger demand. Our travel centers are well-equipped to accommodate EV charging with 24/7 amenities and convenient proximity to major roadways across the country. We look forward to collaborating with GM and the US Department of Transportation to make convenient coast-to-coast EV travel a reality through our national network of travel centers.

https://electrek.co/2022/07/14/gm-dc-fast-charging-network/

 

[IamIA]

Honestly, Kyle needs an editor. I don't have enough time in my day to spend 90 minutes on each of his videos.

Kyle said on one of the Rivian forums that he is incentivized by google to make these videos longer. Personally i stopped liking his videos because:
1. he is a freeloader,
2. he is a tesla fanboy.

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...vian-r1t-out-of-spec-reviews.6205/post-163915

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