The major weakness of the MME (and all non-Tesla EVs) -- reliable, robust charging network doesn't exist

[dbsb3233]

I understood you.

I think ABRP is invaluable, because you can quickly compare GoogleMaps to ABRP, see why they differ, and what makes sense. You can then construct a trip, modifying ABRP, and save the trip. Export it to Google Sheets, add in links to the PlugShare site for researching the next stop's status, and access that while driving (passenger).

I will say that 99% of our DC charging has been EA though. But, with them taking locations out of service for upgrades, you have to be careful.

In short, we both plan, extensively. Many don't, and are rudely surprised.

Ironically, I used ABRP a lot before I got the car (in those 14 months between reserving it in late 2019 and buying it in early 2021), but not after. I was doing all sorts of sample routes to get an idea for what it would be like and comparing it to what we were used to with gas. And I assumed I'd use ABRP a lot after getting the car too. But then I realized a few things. First and foremost, that I didn't like the EV "bottom up" charging plan that every EV route planner seems to use. Meaning, always planning to arrive at the next station at 10% (1% if you're Kyle Conner) in order to get the most optimal charging times in the low end of the charge curve. On paper, that seems to make sense. But in practice, not so much. And certainly not for peace of mind.

I quickly realized that traditional ICE "top down" was far better for my tastes. Meaning, just charging up to 80% (or more after the update) most every time was the way to go. And only drive down to 30-40% or so (or whatever leaves enough to reach a backup DCFC). That's not always possible, but about 90% of the time I can do that. And don't worry about the extra 3-4 minutes it takes to charge in the higher part of the curve.

Second, I wanna know the backups, and most route planners don't readily present them and filter them in a convenient way.

Like you, I use mostly EA. Which makes it easy since they're consistent (power level, price, 4+ chargers, etc) and usually well-spaced. I typically just start with EA's own map, and bookmark the stations in Google Maps ahead of time. Then do my charge planning from there, checking out other options that might exist via Plugshare.

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[SnBGC]

Some very good points. It would be nice if the stations included a simple NEMA 14-50 backup (no extra equipment, no software, no billing) that people could use their mobile charger. Yes, terrible experience, but I would rather sit there for a couple hours than try to find an alternative and pray I can make it.

The NEVI funding "allows" for 4 Level 2 plugs but only when the all the base requirements have been met. There will not be a 14-50 outlet unless it is metered separately. Perhaps with a device such as this?

 

[Mini166]

Such a bummer, and what a long night for your wife. I'm also on that stretch of highway, and this is concerning for sure. I did only order a standard range battery (11/8 build date), but I have ideas of taking it on some longer well-planned trips just for fun just here in CA (taking my time of course). I guess I will have to do extra planning with food and books if I end up waiting long periods of time in a line, etc. Stories like these do give me pause, though. Historically I'm not the most organized or best planner. I'll need to learn!!

 

[SnBGC]

EA exists because Volkswagon committed fraud. EA is their settlement. No other reason. The EPA just happened to be responsible for dealing with fraudulent polluting activities. There was no mandate, there were court cases over VW's actions. That's how the settlement came about.

True. I oversimplified for brevity. My point is that EA wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for the idea that the EPA fines would be used to build the stations. On the plus side, many areas received DCFC stations sooner than later. On the downside, they have a less than favorable performance rating. All things considered....probably the best of any number of impossible scenarios really.

The other choices that come to mind would be to hope the government builds these things and that has a host of follow up questions and concerns of course. Or maybe we wait until owning and operating DCFC become profitable and then the private sector will take over. Neither of these sound particularly promising.

I have a suspicion that the commercial trucking sector is going to be the biggest driver in what the infrastructure ends up looking like. NEVI is well and good, but the trucking industry has so much more influence over fueling needs in between cities that they are bound to write their own rules in the end.

 

[jeffMachE]

Yeah, especially if it's the wrong one. I usually try to plan my routes and charging stops so that I always leave a backup DCFC in range. That means stopping more often, and usually leaving around 40% "in the tank" at each stop instead of running it down to 10% as is the traditional EV method. I just charge up to 80%+ (sometimes even 90%) at nearly every DCFC regardless of how much is really needed to reach the next charger. Takes an extra 20 minutes in a 500 mile day vs optimal planning, but it's worth it. I don't use route planners, I do my own planning and nav only from station to station.

But some routes do have that do-or-die charger with no backup for another 100 miles. Those suck, knowing the only backup is getting stranded at al L2 for hours and blowing the schedule. Haven't had to do that yet, but it'll probably happen sometime.

It'll be nice when we get more redundancy. Tesla SCs opening up to CCS will be a big development, even if only used as backups for us.

Does Green River make you nervous, Tim? Every time I drive to Vegas or Salt Lake (4 trips now), I get nervous about the single point of failure that is Green River, UT. That being said, I do a similar thing - if I stop, I charge to 80 or 90% - the extra 15-20 minutes per stop provides the peace of mind when its 100+ miles to the next possible charging location.

In general, I've found the EA stations to be about 75% working. They have recently been upgrading the once that I frequent and hopefully the new stations will be more reliable. I haven't yet "failed" to get a charge when I needed it, but I have had to resort to 6 kW charging a couple of times.

 

[ADDZ71]

It's interesting. If you put in that route to GoogleMaps, the SHORTEST DRIVE TIME is the northern route, at 3:26 and 211 miles. The southern route comes up as 3:46 and 167 miles, and the middle route at 4:01 and 199 miles.

Of course if you leave with 100% charge, have an ER, and aren't blasting the heat, you don't need to charge on the southern route, do you? Franklin, TN shows two 80kW chargers.

you got it (211 miles in my GT at highway speeds at ~50 degrees would require a charge - the 167 mile route makes sense but I have to get back). I have not been super happy with the shell Recharge (those you suggested in Franklin, NC which are 150 kW chargers). The challenge is I intend to make this a roundtrip in one day which leaves me without being able to get back to that charger comfortably.

One thing I noted while in Michigan this past weekend is that driving an EV really pushes you to be hyper sensitive about your efficiency. When you know you will deplete your electrons and need a charge is not as easy as driving I-75 at 90 mph in your F-150 and just fill up.

 

[sloan1919]

My hope is that this will continue to improve as EV adoption increases.​

It won’t. Nothing addresses getting the tax incentive and then not investing in the continued and required maintenance. If you read the post, it wasn’t that there weren’t chargers, they just don’t work and aren’t maintained. The legislature should have included metrics and KPI requirements based on availability (e.g., how often does that shit work, average charge speed) and usage.

 

[dbsb3233]

Does Green River make you nervous, Tim? Every time I drive to Vegas or Salt Lake (4 trips now), I get nervous about the single point of failure that is Green River, UT. That being said, I do a similar thing - if I stop, I charge to 80 or 90% - the extra 15-20 minutes per stop provides the peace of mind when its 100+ miles to the next possible charging location.

In general, I've found the EA stations to be about 75% working. They have recently been upgrading the once that I frequent and hopefully the new stations will be more reliable. I haven't yet "failed" to get a charge when I needed it, but I have had to resort to 6 kW charging a couple of times.

It kinda does, with no DCFC for 100 miles in either direction on I-70. It's the weak spot on an otherwise well-covered route. But even though 1 or 2 chargers are sometimes broken (the usual EA pattern), we've always gotten a charge there. I'd say about 25 times now (we drive that route every month or two).

Sometimes we peel off and head northwest on US-6 to Salt Lake and Reno instead, and there's 2 (free) CP125's in Price about 60 miles from Green River. That's a backup option if going that direction instead.

Grand Junction is close to do-or-die charge too. Last month was the first time the EA at Sam's Club was all full for us, plus someone waiting (2 Rivians in use and 2 broken chargers). They do have that lone 62.5kW CP on Horizon just off I-70 that's our backup. We used that, although had to wait 15 minutes for an EV6 to finish up. That's rare, but becoming more of a problem lately. I swear that I-70 is the official Rivian route. I see tons of them now.

 

[kltye]

We've driven north and south, east and west with the MME - up to the western portion of Michigan's UP, west to Kansas City, east to West Virginia. I only experienced waiting once at a DCFC because a station was broken. With the OBCC updates, EvGO chargers have been working just fine for us. We don't even have home charging, and we're nearing 16,000 miles over the last 16 months of ownership.
My biggest gripe for the lack of charger coverage is partially because of reliability concerns, but mostly so I don't have to stay at a DCFC past my optimal charge curve just to be able to arrive at the next one with enough buffer.

 

[1stFord]

Just about done.....Ordered 2/10/22 - Converted to 2023 with 10/31/22 production date. Still can't get link from Ford email to give me status on build. Dealer said it was built Saturday but who knows. Probably will not make end of year delivery and tax rebate. With Sandy Muro review of "off the shelf parts" and table full of tubes on the Mach E, Fords poor customer service, and change in the auto market, may just opt out on the car when it does appear.

 

[Bobbyg813]

Yep it’s an issue, but in the meantime, do you use plugshare app? It can tell you if the stations are down or issues. When i roadtrip i pre plan my stops and use plugshare to weed out any chargers that may not be working.

Just curious...Does Plug Share give you real-time charger in-service updates, or are you relying on check-ins?

 

[am142j]

This goes for all non-Tesla EVs. You can make the best EV in the world, but it's near useless to take outside it's single-charge range if a reliable, robust charging network doesn't exist.

Being in NorCal with chargers located all over, my wife decided to take the MME from Sac to San Fran yesterday. She needed to stop on the way home last night - late night around 1AM. First stop in Vacaville had only 4 fast chargers (no stop on her route had more than 4), and when she showed up none were working.

Second stop, 1 wasn't working, the other one was charging at 6kW. The fact that neither the MME or FordPass app display the charging rate is another store altogether.

Third stop she was able to charge at 48kW long enough to get the range she needed to get home.

It goes without saying that we're taking the Tesla down to Anaheim this week. Many well-located charging stations with dozens of well-maintained chargers that will hit our 250kW max acceptance rate. She's already considering trading the MME for another Tesla.

Here's hoping the Inflation Reduction Act inflates the number of reliable chargers on the road. Until then, I can't wait for Tesla to open up the supercharger network.

OH NO! The EA at the outlets has always been my go to spot when driving in between the bay and sac. I don't really like some of the other stops with fast chargers. I've had that issue where i was in SJ and just followed the app and the chargers didn't work. My friend has since told me that you can call EA and they can restart it. I know with the trip being super late it would have been frustrating and I would not call at that time and just keep driving, so I feel the pain/struggle. That also happened a few times to me when driving to Socal.

 

[1969Camaro]

If you're unhappy with the car because it doesn't meet your expectations, sell it and move on. Life is too short to deal with the nonsense of unrealistic or unmet expectations.

Good luck with that. And you're also getting the worst of both worlds.

EA exists because Volkswagon committed fraud. EA is their settlement. No other reason. The EPA just happened to be responsible for dealing with fraudulent polluting activities. There was no mandate, there were court cases over VW's actions. That's how the settlement came about.

This is also part of the reason Ford wants dealers to install 24/7 public DCFC units at all electric division dealers.

Yup. It's going to be a long time before you can do extended-range drives without any planning in a BEV.

There's a direct correlation between DCFC and fossil fuel prices. Many power plants in the country are powered by coal, oil, natural gas, and the like. Add those costs to the infrastructure costs of the stations and you arrive at a fairly steep price. DCFC prices tend to be reasonably close to gasoline prices. Long-distance travel is not where you're going to save in an EV.

Disagree getting worst of both worlds. My daily drive is less than 50 miles. All electric. Having a vehicle with 400+ mile range is the ideal vehicle for mostly local driving and occasional long distance. But I guess some people aren't happy unless they are miserable.

 

[dbsb3233]

On the plus side, many areas received DCFC stations sooner than later. On the downside, they have a less than favorable performance rating. All things considered....probably the best of any number of impossible scenarios really.

The saving grace for EA is that nearly every station has a minimum of 4 chargers, which masks a lot of their high failure rate. Or at least is does when stations are not busy. As they're getting busy, those 1 or 2 chronically broken chargers are becoming a bigger deal. But when not busy, we just slide over to the next charger. We did that a lot in 2021. Getting harder to do in 2022 though.

That's the problem with most non-EA CCS stations. There's usually just 1 or 2 chargers at most of them. So even though they may have more dependable hardware overall, when they're broken, we're usually SOL.

 

[dbsb3233]

Just curious...Does Plug Share give you real-time charger in-service updates, or are you relying on check-ins?

Plugshare is just check-ins.

The charger's own network app sometimes gives real-time status. EA does that, or at least partially does that. Not always fully dependable though.

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