The major weakness of the MME (and all non-Tesla EVs) -- reliable, robust charging network doesn't exist

[RickMachE]

Just the opposite of frustrating for me. It's comforting knowing the route and the options and the backups. Much more peace of mind than just getting in the car and trusting it's choices with no backups identified if a station is down or full when I get there. Choices that may require apps and payment I'm not ready for, that may be just 50kw instead of 100+, that may not even be compatible with the MME (like Efacec machines), etc.

Yes, it does take some time to pre-plan. But that's OK, I'm a natural trip planner anyway. And retired. But I know that's not everyone's cup of tea.

But you said you don't use Trip Planners...

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[Blue highway]

Charging will be a bottleneck in many parts of the country for years to come when attempting to travel outside of your home charging area. It is good going North to South or vice versa through North Carolina but don't try to go East West. I live about two hours west of Charlotte and the preparation for what are sometimes trivial trips in an ICE require another level of planning. My office in charlotte does not have charging (other than a wall outlet) today and it about 150 miles from my home. I wanted to drive from my home to near Chattanooga the scenic route and their is exactly one charger that charges above 8 kW on the route and it is not located in a spot that I can return from my visit and charge to make it home. If that one charger (Shell Recharge) is down I am screwed if I were to try and take the MME.

its time for a rant!

rant! - There is no Plan B in too many places. I now plan 15% minimum arrival buffer... what a waste.

rant! - whoever makes Electrify America stations should be sued... ridiculously unreliable products. What other product in your life do you rely on that fails to work a quarter of the time?

rant! - DCFC companies... just stop it with the effing apps. I don't want any more apps. just use my credit card.

ok... I feel better now.

 

[RickMachE]

This is where I think the 'roadside rural businesses' will go.... What a great way to capture someone for an hour at your shop, right ?!

But not good for a traveller trying to cover 500 miles in a day.

We've stopped at some DC chargers (including EA) located at places like a Harley Davidson dealer, a Denny's restaurant, etc. They have to be getting business even with a 30 - 40 minute stop.

 

[dbsb3233]

But you said you don't use Trip Planners...

I don't, meaning the trip planners that automatically tell me where and when to charge like the Ford nav or ABRP. I don't just get in the car and go and let the car tell me how far to go and where to charge.

I manually use resources to research, of course. The EA app and Plugshare mostly. And of course Google Maps, heavily. I scout the charging options, including backups, and plan my own route and stops.

I think we just meant different things with the term "trip planner".

 

[The Electric Duo]

Yep. People often make the mistake of thinking "I only pay 10 cents for electricity at home, so 43c at EA is expensive!!". Nope, most of what they're paying for when charging at a 350kW charger along I-70 in the middle of Kansas is not the electricity, it's the equipment and installation and maintenance and to GET 350kW of electricity to remote locations. And to keep the process thermally controlled, to interface properly with the car, for payment processing, 24x7 assistance, etc etc etc. The vast majority of the cost is in the SERVICE they're getting for it being located where they need it, not the electricity itself.

I've gotten several comments on my road trip videos about how pricey it is to DCFC on road trips. And yeah, it can be pricey and will likely get more expensive. If you road trip a lot (or don't have charging at home), EVs are as economical.

But... how many people driving gas cars would jump at a deal where they got gas for $1.50 per gallon but they have to pay $5 per gallon on road trips. I just made up the numbers, but you get my point.

I've also had people that I talk to in person complain and say "I need at least 500 miles of range before I buy an EV." Then I explain to them that on my trips to Vegas, I drive from Denver and my first stop is usually Glenwood Springs (if my bladder lasts) and then I eat and charge for the next leg. These same people are shocked. "Wow, you can make it to Glenwood? That's pretty good." As you know (but I'm sure others don't), Glenwood Springs is only about 170 miles from Denver.

 

[RickMachE]

I don't, meaning the trip planners that automatically tell me where and when to charge like the Ford nav or ABRP. I don't just get in the car and go and let the car tell me how far to go and where to charge.

I manually use resources to research, of course. The EA app and Plugshare mostly. And of course Google Maps, heavily. I scout the charging options, including backups, and plan my own route and stops.

I think we just meant different things with the term "trip planner".

I understood you.

I think ABRP is invaluable, because you can quickly compare GoogleMaps to ABRP, see why they differ, and what makes sense. You can then construct a trip, modifying ABRP, and save the trip. Export it to Google Sheets, add in links to the PlugShare site for researching the next stop's status, and access that while driving (passenger).

I will say that 99% of our DC charging has been EA though. But, with them taking locations out of service for upgrades, you have to be careful.

In short, we both plan, extensively. Many don't, and are rudely surprised.

 

[tuminatr]

Where I live reliability is much less of an issue, speed can be depending on where you are traveling. I learn what networks to avoid because upkeep is bad and what companies I can depend on for a working charger. One other thing is plugshare and ABRP are great resources.

 

[dtbaker61]

Yep. People often make the mistake of thinking "I only pay 10 cents for electricity at home, so 43c at EA is expensive!!". Nope, most of what they're paying for when charging at a 350kW charger along I-70 in the middle of Kansas is not the electricity, it's the equipment and installation and maintenance and to GET 350kW of electricity to remote locations. And to keep the process thermally controlled, to interface properly with the car, for payment processing, 24x7 assistance, etc etc etc. The vast majority of the cost is in the SERVICE they're getting for it being located where they need it, not the electricity itself.

Its a combination of the cost of a dedicated transformer, charge station hardware, and many utilities struggling to come up with a way to handle 150kw-600kw loads comin on and off line and manage the voltage on old powerlines and switching equipment. Most areas are in the process of developing EV charge station rateclass to lower or eliminate 'demand charges'.... but small rural utilities will struggle with load management without batteries to smooth the loads.

As an example, a rural utility just north of me does not have a 'EV charge station' rateclass. The have a general rateclass for anything pulling peak loads over 50kw at about $25/kw as a demand charge on top of energy cost per kwhr. So one L3 charge station, charging one or two cars a day might earn a couple hundred dollars of revenue per month, but face a $7000 demand charge with peak loads of 300kW (2x chargers)... that works out to a cost to owner around $1.50/kWhr just for the energy, not counting amortized cost of transformer and hardware.

It's going to be a while before rural business owners and utilities work out how to handle it. My bet is battery buffers so the Utility sees nice even 50kW loads, and charge stations can dispense gulps of energy at higher power if batteries can recover between charges.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Amen, this is the reason I am seriously considering selling my Mach R after only 3 months of ownership.

If you're unhappy with the car because it doesn't meet your expectations, sell it and move on. Life is too short to deal with the nonsense of unrealistic or unmet expectations.

I would trade mine in a heartbeat if I could find a non-inflated price RAV4 Prime. Really best of both worlds.

Good luck with that. And you're also getting the worst of both worlds.

They exist primarily because the EPA mandated it.

EA exists because Volkswagon committed fraud. EA is their settlement. No other reason. The EPA just happened to be responsible for dealing with fraudulent polluting activities. There was no mandate, there were court cases over VW's actions. That's how the settlement came about.

rural roadtrips will 'problematic' unless EV drivers can adjust their expectations to accept around 50kw as the fastest they are likely to find.

This is also part of the reason Ford wants dealers to install 24/7 public DCFC units at all electric division dealers.

Just the opposite of frustrating for me. It's comforting knowing the route and the options and the backups.

Yup. It's going to be a long time before you can do extended-range drives without any planning in a BEV.

I've gotten several comments on my road trip videos about how pricey it is to DCFC on road trips.

There's a direct correlation between DCFC and fossil fuel prices. Many power plants in the country are powered by coal, oil, natural gas, and the like. Add those costs to the infrastructure costs of the stations and you arrive at a fairly steep price. DCFC prices tend to be reasonably close to gasoline prices. Long-distance travel is not where you're going to save in an EV.

 

[dtbaker61]

This is also part of the reason Ford wants dealers to install 24/7 public DCFC units at all electric division dealers.

Yes, that is a great start at hitting 'small/medium' towns..... but in a state like New Mexico for instance, if I want to drive up to Colorado, not on I-25, but either of the smaller highways (285 or 550, or 64) then there is a huge empty hole of several hundred miles with NO chargers (not even L2) between Santa Fe and the Colorado line.

 

[dmastro]

I think most of the responses here are accurate, and demonstrate the point I was making.

Yes, you can road trip in an EV. IF...

You use several apps, and
spend a bunch of time planning stops and reviewing to make sure the chargers are working before you leave, and
hope that the relatively small bank of chargers aren't being used when you arrive

That's great (if not optimal) for many of us on this forum. But remember we're the < 1%ers, and it's still frustrating for many of us. The vast majority of EV owners will not go to those ends, or understand how to do all the planning (what, filter chargers by kW????)

EV charging needs to become as simple and ubiquitous as filling an ICE with gas, plain and simple.

I understand EV is still in its infancy and these are first-world problems that are trying to be addressed. I don't expect them to be fixed overnight, but we need to keep beating the drum.

 

[dbsb3233]

I've gotten several comments on my road trip videos about how pricey it is to DCFC on road trips. And yeah, it can be pricey and will likely get more expensive. If you road trip a lot (or don't have charging at home), EVs are as economical.

But... how many people driving gas cars would jump at a deal where they got gas for $1.50 per gallon but they have to pay $5 per gallon on road trips. I just made up the numbers, but you get my point.

I've also had people that I talk to in person complain and say "I need at least 500 miles of range before I buy an EV." Then I explain to them that on my trips to Vegas, I drive from Denver and my first stop is usually Glenwood Springs (if my bladder lasts) and then I eat and charge for the next leg. These same people are shocked. "Wow, you can make it to Glenwood? That's pretty good." As you know (but I'm sure others don't), Glenwood Springs is only about 170 miles from Denver.

Yep. Plus even though DCFC may be in the same ballpark as the price of gas on a per-mile basis, it doesn't necessarily mean the trip costs the same. For our Denver-Vegas drives for instance, the first 170 miles or so (1st leg) is from home charging at only 10c/kWh. And we usually spend the night in Richfield UT and use a free charger by the hotel, so that next ~170 miles is free. Same thing on the way back since we get free L2 at the Vegas hotels. Roughly 40% of our trip miles are free or using dirt cheap home charging.

Of course, nothing is truly "free", depending on how one wants to factor that into the price of the hotel. But still.

 

[EV OLVE]

Baker CA has a large EA charging station right next to a large tesla station, in the 30 minutes i sit there waiting for my MME or I4 to charge, I count no less than 3 Tesla's being brought in by tow truck because they ran out of charge, I go thru this station at least 2x a month.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Yes, that is a great start at hitting 'small/medium' towns..... but in a state like New Mexico for instance, if I want to drive up to Colorado, not on I-25, but either of the smaller highways (285 or 550, or 64) then there is a huge empty hole of several hundred miles with NO chargers (not even L2) between Santa Fe and the Colorado line.

Agreed. EV charging infrastructure has a fair way to go. We're all in the early part of the EV changeover. As an example, we're about to move our 2021 Ranger from central Oregon back down to the SFO Bay Area. The amount of planning? "We'll go on I-5, I-505, I-80, 880, 92, US-101." And that's over-planning, really all I thought about was the fastest way to get from the Oregon House to I-5. It'd have to be a fair bit more detailed than that for an MME.

 

[RickMachE]

Yep. Plus even though DCFC may be in the same ballpark as the price of gas on a per-mile basis, it doesn't necessarily mean the trip costs the same. For our Denver-Vegas drives for instance, the first 170 miles or so (1st leg) is from home charging at only 10c/kWh. And we usually spend the night in Richfield UT and use a free charger by the hotel, so that next ~170 miles is free. Same thing on the way back since we get free L2 at the Vegas hotels. Roughly 40% of our trip miles are free or using dirt cheap home charging.

Of course, nothing is truly "free", depending on how one wants to factor that into the price of the hotel. But still.

Here's the problem with your explanation above.

1) It assumes people plan their trips, as you and I do. I try to arrive at hotels with 10% or so, enough to go to dinner. And make sure that an EA location is within that 10% in case I cannot charge at the hotel.

2) It assumes people have a brain in their heads / are somewhat knowledgeable about EVs. Too many are charging at DC chargers "because its' free", having no clue what they are doing. Show up at a hotel empty to get free charging? Nah, that takes work to figure out.

I'll be the majority of EA charging (fee-based, not the X years free) is at full price, because figuring out the payback of the $4 Pass+ is too hard.

If EA is per minute in a state, it's actually close to the same as many people's home charging. 24 cents per minute is around 14 - 15 cents per kWh. That's what I pay, with taxes. In a per kWh state, 31 cents (plus tax) for 3 miles (roughly) is 10 cents a mile. Assuming 10% tax on the EA cost brings it to 34 cents, at $3.75 gas, you'd have to get 33mpg to have it be the same cost, so it's still cheaper even without free hotel charging.

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