Tesla recalls 2 million vehicles over autopilot safety concerns

[The Electric Duo]

Because no one ever fell asleep in a non driver assist capable car right?

It might sound like I'm against improving safety, but it's just the opposite. If you want to make safety features work you have to make them so they don't annoy. If a safety feature is annoying no one will use it, which in turn makes everything less safe.

There has to be balance. Over regulation of a miniscule amount of deaths (as unfortunate as they are) isn't the solution.

Tesla has some of the safest vehicles on the road thanks to AP. But many people here are critiquing them, apparently for saving lives... strange! Facts don't seem to matter to many people around here.

https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

Several researchers have disputed Tesla's numbers but it is truly hard to know since Tesla hasn't released the full data. I am not a researcher but I have read their analysis. One of the best is Brad Templeton. Here is a recent article that dives into a lot of the overstated safety records from Tesla.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradte...-story-with-their-crash-data/?sh=9a464a6feda4

It is a matter of balance and I think Autopilot and other ADAS can significantly improve safety. It all has to interact with humans which brings up the weakness you stated above. If it is too annoying, people will disable it. In addition, the better a system is at handling driving situations, the more potential for boredom for the human.

If I told you to watch a video for 30 seconds and something exciting would happen, we'd all be able to that. But if I said to watch it for 30 minutes and at some point something exciting would happen and we'd all struggle. Now stretch that out to hours or days and it gets even more difficult.

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[DevSecOps]

Do you think that no recall is needed or that the NHTSA got it wrong?

Yes, I don't believe it's a safety issue. I don't think 18 deaths over 10 years, or whatever it is warrants this. I also don't think the HVBJB recall was safety based. I agree it needed to happen, but I don't think it was a safety issue at all.

As a society we have done things like legalizing drugs that have had serious implications on death rates, increasing them at wild rates. I believe in facts and keeping people safe. I don't think we are focusing our efforts in the right place.

Over regulation of a tool proven to save lives, for the sake of saving 18 more isn't what I consider to be good. I think that will prevent people from using it and it will stifle further innovation.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

yep, I don't have faith in current tech on this. For it to work it has to work 100% of the time, even a tiny percent of not working and someone can get killed. I guess I don't understand why people want to get as far away from driving a vehicle as they can. I thoroughly enjoy driving, riding my motorcycle.

Because even in its current state. Autopilot is still safer than the average driver.

don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. As the saying goes.

 

[DevSecOps]

I would add check your source? Tesla are great, Elon is known to lie/exaggerate/manipulate the system to look better, but by all means show me the stats he controls to justify your position (tesla.com)

Likewise prove it wrong. That street goes both ways. I'm willing to accept it's incorrect. Are you willing to accept it as being correct?

There's just as many articles that say it might be wrong as there are that say it's correct. We can link opposing and supporting articles all day long, but only Tesla knows the truth and therefore we resort to Tesla for that data.

 

[dtbaker61]

The best is a combination of both lidar sensors and cameras, which is what I'm hoping Rivian eventually achieves since they have 10 cameras and a boat load of sensors.

part of my concern is cost....

with enough sensors, cameras, software, and liability insurance it may be possible to add 'auto-drive' features capable of steering and braking safely in limited circumstances.....

BUT, the cost of adding all that equipment drives the cost of the vehicle up by.... ??? $ 5k ? and the cost of a minor fender bender repair up to ??? and insurance settlement time and claims up to ???

I can't help bu think all the added tech puts the vehicle out of reach for middle America and will SLOW the adoption and make 'old' used vehicles undrivable and expensive to maintain..... just look at the mystery issues we are having with ONE front camera that kills adaptive cruise if there is a blink in the feed. Can you image what a 20 year old MME will be like? Will it be maintainable, or tossed in the scrapyard when minor electronics start failing.

I'd like to see simpler, cheaper, maintainable vehicles with passive safety features... not auto-drive, steer, or brake depending on sensors, computers, and displays that won't last 25 years.

 

[MacherAWD]

Likewise prove it wrong. That street goes both ways. I'm willing to accept it's incorrect. Are you willing to accept it as being correct?

There's just as many articles that say it might be wrong as there are that say it's correct. We can link opposing and supporting articles all day long, but only Tesla knows the truth and therefore we resort to Tesla for that data.

Dude you are joking right? Read the post above, he did the work for me. Tesla has the data, wont release it but yeah lets assume its right. You are obviously smarter then you are letting on.

But yeah F' those 18 people, de-regulate cars, lets over-regulate a plant I can grow in my garden...

 

[DevSecOps]

Dude you are joking right? Read the post above, he did the work for me. Tesla has the data, wont release it but yeah lets assume its right. You are obviously smarter then you are letting on.

But yeah F' those 18 people, de-regulate cars, lets over-regulate a plant I can grow in my garden...

The difference between you and I is that I have no bias. I've driven both vehicles extensively. I have no stock or financial gain from either company. I believe in facts, not what the bat shit crazy media tells me.

Yes Tesla has the data, so are you gonna believe the person with the data or the person guessing. You pick the person guessing. I pick the person with the data. Either could be wrong.

You claim I say F' those 18 people, but you could care less about the thousands who have died while driving under recreational drug laws. That's called bias. My point isn't to say we shouldn't make vehicles safer. My point isn't to say we shouldn't save lives. My point is that there's a balance between safety and annoyance.

Every day in the security field we have to walk these balances. I could prevent anyone from getting email, would that be the safest, sure. Would that be practical, no. Emails are one of the top ways that threats are introduced into corporate environments. Furthermore, it's not the email, it's the person who acts on the email. So we train people to identify these threats.

The tools in these cars are features that are proven to increase safety. We have to train people to use them correctly. It's the same in almost every field. We can't just regulate them to the point of non use. The day I see you championing drug and alcohol detectors in vehicles is the day I'll say you actually care, until then it's just bias.

 

[Mirak]

I have a Tesla and tried FSD beta for a month. I had a long road trip and said "why not?".

On the highway it was like any other L2 system except it would change lanes to get around slow people. My gripe was that it would want to hang out in the 2nd lane from the right, presumably to avoid merging traffic. The problem is if I'm going 75 in a 65 riding in the left lane of a 2 lane highway, it upsets anyone going faster behind me. I'd have to constantly tell it "not" to do that. Legally it wasn't doing anything wrong other than speeding but it's not the way I'd drive.

In the "city"... holy crap. Not relaxing at all, its like a 15yr old with a learners permit. You have to constantly watch that it doesn't do something stupid. It was not relaxing in the slightest bit. It's better than any other system, but it's got a ways to go.

All that said. I've riden with worse drivers ?

When you used the FSD, how often did you have to put your hands on the wheel?

 

[ShaggySS]

My '22 Bronco had an OTA NHTSA recall for the reverse camera.

So we are using the government as a the bar….

 

[Mirak]

Reading this thread is confusing as all hell. Most people chiming in don't appear to have much, if any, familiarity with Tesla's offerings. I certainly don't. I just have questions.

I'm curious what the point is of paying $12,000+ for "Full Self Driving" if you supposedly have to keep a hand on the wheel?

I'm curious what the "recall" is actually going to require.

I'm curious how long you can go without a touch before being nagged by the torque sensor, and what limitations are imposed/lifted by the cabin cam.

I'm curious how this might impact BlueCruise.

I'm curious about what other questions I'm not even considering.

It would seem to me, and this is largely speculation because I don't have enough firsthand experience with Tesla's offerings, that it would be reasonable for the gov to require Tesla to tighten up its torque sensor warnings, and tighten up the cabin camera so that there actually needs to be a driver in the seat with eyes open.

 

[DevSecOps]

When you used the FSD, how often did you have to put your hands on the wheel?

First of all his experience is a good example of someone who just didn't know how to configure FSD. There's an option to stay out of the leftmost lane which he had enabled and that's why it constantly changed lanes. Admittedly, it's a very annoying setting.

The time on the wheel with your hands is very short. I'm on vacation through the end of the week driving the Rivian. I'll do a video and time it when I get back.

I'm curious what the point is of paying $12,000+ for "Full Self Driving" if you supposedly have to keep a hand on the wheel?

You don't have to opt for 12k. You can also do $199 a month.

FSD is mostly a gimmick. Enhanced AP and NoA are both very similar to BC and they are $99 a month. FSD on a freeway or long trips on interstates is actually really nice. The most similar tech is NoA (Navigate on AutoPilot). It's a simplified version of FSD. It will change lanes automatically, take off ramps and threat mitigation. NoA is part of Enhanced AP, so you don't need to pay for FSD.

I think the biggest reason to pay for Enhanced AP is because of the threat mitigation. Most people, I know I'm in this group, aren't worried about their driving, they are worried about everyone around them. Tesla monitors this space and takes action. No other car company has driver assist with that feature. It's hands down the best part of AP/FSD. That's why it's much safer when you have AP on then when it's not.

I'm curious how long you can go without a touch before being nagged by the torque sensor, and what limitations are imposed/lifted by the cabin cam.

The cabin camera looks for distracted glances. Looking at a phone or away from the immediate area in front of you, very similar to the eye nanny in the MME. It will do the following in this order:

- Give you a red hands on wheel alert telling you to pay attention to the road
- Tell you to apply torque to the wheel with an audible tone and blue flashing

So if the camera detects that you are distracted you have to look forward AND apply torque to let it know you're not.

If you don't do these then you get a strike and FSD becomes unavailable for the remainder of the drive. At 5 strikes you loose FSD capabilities for 2 weeks as a punishment.

As much as I'm defending the fact that I don't like this recall. BC and BCHF are much less anoying and they NEVER punish you like Tesla does. I would much rather drive with BC/BCHF than AP or FSD.

That's why I've said a few times in this thread that BC is probably next to get put on the chopping block. Most people commenting have no idea what AP or FSD is like, they are just echoing falsities that they hear about in the MSM.

 

[The Electric Duo]

Reading this thread is confusing as all hell. Most people chiming in don't appear to have much, if any, familiarity with Tesla's offerings. I certainly don't. I just have questions.

I'm curious what the point is of paying $12,000+ for "Full Self Driving" if you supposedly have to keep a hand on the wheel?

I'm curious what the "recall" is actually going to require.

I'm curious how long you can go without a touch before being nagged by the torque sensor, and what limitations are imposed/lifted by the cabin cam.

I'm curious how this might impact BlueCruise.

I'm curious about what other questions I'm not even considering.

It would seem to me, and this is largely speculation because I don't have enough firsthand experience with Tesla's offerings, that it would be reasonable for the gov to require Tesla to tighten up its torque sensor warnings, and tighten up the cabin camera so that there actually needs to be a driver in the seat with eyes open.

People that use FSD Beta like that it will steer for you based on your route even through city streets. It will make turns, do lane changes, turn the blink on/off, change speed to match the speed limit, and even stop at stop lights. We tried it out and it was amazing... until it wasn't. Some of the things it does are mind blowing and then 30 seconds later it makes a dumb and dangerous mistake.

It sounds like the recall might just add more nags but it isn't clear. It also mentions it will do more checks before activating. Right now you can turn on Autopilot on any street where it detects lanes (like ICC with Ford). No one knows what additional checks will be performed or if that will limit where it can be used.

The nags now seem to vary from from what I've heard. In heavy traffic, it can be every few seconds. On a long stretch of highway with little traffic, it can be over a minute.

No impact on Bluecruise for now but there is more and more scrutiny on how ADAS is being implemented. The whole industry is trying to figure out how to avoid regulation and the government is trying to figure out if adding regulation will slow safety advancements or ensure they are actually safe.

 

[TheSteelRider]

People that use FSD Beta like that it will steer for you based on your route even through city streets. It will make turns, do lane changes, turn the blink on/off, change speed to match the speed limit, and even stop at stop lights. We tried it out and it was amazing... until it wasn't. Some of the things it does are mind blowing and then 30 seconds later it makes a dumb and dangerous mistake.

It sounds like the recall might just add more nags but it isn't clear. It also mentions it will do more checks before activating. Right now you can turn on Autopilot on any street where it detects lanes (like ICC with Ford). No one knows what additional checks will be performed or if that will limit where it can be used.

The nags now seem to vary from from what I've heard. In heavy traffic, it can be every few seconds. On a long stretch of highway with little traffic, it can be over a minute.

No impact on Bluecruise for now but there is more and more scrutiny on how ADAS is being implemented. The whole industry is trying to figure out how to avoid regulation and the government is trying to figure out if adding regulation will slow safety advancements or ensure they are actually safe.

To me, this is really the crux of the issue at hand. All of these advancing ADAS systems, but if we are honest no manufacturer has published extensive "theory of operations" for any of them. I tend to want less regulation, but I think most people would agree that, at the least, the operation of these systems should be open to inspection from the public, safety regulators, heck ANYONE outside of the company.

I think there is more ire on Tesla (and I admit I share some of this ire) because, due to it's neural network design it is more "magical" than other systems. You can't ask a NN why it did something, it will not know. Disclaimer here, I am not really knowledgeable about the system, and don't really know if it is a full neural network, partial, or whatever, but I digress it is said to be a neural network therefore I accept it is.

I watched a great video on the future of advanced ADAS systems ... can't quite find it again now to link to it, but it highlighted that we all need to understand that people WILL die with these systems. But, the key is that LESS PEOPLE die than do right now. It's a philosophical debate I had with my relatives, in fact, after I showed them BC 1.0 (which of course is a poor example of an advanced ADAS!).

@DevSecOps I agree mostly with your position. @Mach-E VLOG , it would not surprise me to learn of cooked data from Tesla, but I bet the overall accidents per mile are indeed less in a Tesla with any of it's ADAS systems on compared to off?

 

[DevSecOps]

I bet the overall accidents per mile are indeed less in a Tesla with any of it's ADAS systems on compared to off?

You really don't need to guess about it. If you go to YouTube watch some of the videos from a channel called "Wham Bam Teslacam" you'll see how it avoids accidents.

It's quite interesting how many accidents these cars avoid through mitigation while on AP. I've said time and time again that I think Tesla nags way too much, erroneously and too often compared to BC. That's based on a lot of driving in each vehicle. I would prefer BC to AP. So, basically I'm in the Ford camp here. But the reality is also that AP is far safer that BC and that's where I'm in the Tesla camp. It's ability to mitigate threats is quite amazing. That's the reason I take such issue with the "Unsafe Tesla" echo-chamber here. They just have no idea what they are talking about and their hatred for Elon clouds reality. I fear that these regulations will only make less people use AP, meaning that it will make the roads less safe.

 

[The Electric Duo]

I watched a great video on the future of advanced ADAS systems ... can't quite find it again now to link to it, but it highlighted that we all need to understand that people WILL die with these systems. But, the key is that LESS PEOPLE die than do right now. It's a philosophical debate I had with my relatives, in fact, after I showed them BC 1.0 (which of course is a poor example of an advanced ADAS!).

@DevSecOps I agree mostly with your position. @Mach-E VLOG , it would not surprise me to learn of cooked data from Tesla, but I bet the overall accidents per mile are indeed less in a Tesla with any of it's ADAS systems on compared to off?

Just because there are less deaths or accidents with a system doesn't mean those accidents should be ignored. We do need to understand there will be mistakes though. The recent issue with the Cruise robotaxi is a perfect example. The Cruise vehicle was traveling through an intersection when another car hit a pedestrian and launched them at the robotaxi. They landed underneath the car while it was in motion. The car detected the impact and did what it was programmed to do. It put on its hazards and moved to the side of the road. Unfortunately, the pedestrian was dragged under the car. Now Cruise has suspended the robotaxi operations.

And yeah, in article I linked to, the guy concludes that Tesla is cooking the data. I believe using ADAS (properly) is safer than not using it and that's what other data shows. But coming up with unrealistic and inaccurate statistics hurts the advancement of ADAS technology.

I think it is comparable to overstating the range. If I tell you that you can go 300 miles on a charge and you believe me, you will likely be stranded short of that 300 miles. If you tell people that their "Full Self Driving" car is 10x safer than a car without the system, they will have issues (an accident) if they full trust it. In a couple of recent interviews, Elon has been adding a slightly different phrase and I think it makes a big difference. He says SUPERVISED Full Self Driving is safer. That supervising part is key for all of these systems.

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