Comparing DCFC costs to gas prices

[kennethjk]

@Mach1E and @kennethjk : no one is saying you would cross shop. That’s irrelevant. We are comparing capability and efficiency of gas vs electric and the implications on the energy portion of operating costs. The size of the vehicles I listed are within an inch from one another. The acceleration is almost identical. That’s what matters. And it’s a much closer comparison than the mache with a Camry hybrid like some suggested. Also, the 3.3 efficiency is for a premium, not a gtpe. I don’t drive a gtpe and have no sense of its efficiency. But I drive a premium and do so in harsh weather conditions. Last time I checked lifetime efficiency it was in that 3.3 range.

Again, the statement that cost of DCFC is equivalent to gas is lazy and wrong. It is way cheaper than gas.

The reason I got the MME is exactly because it is so close to the Macan, physically and I wasn’t implying that DCFC cost was more or less, at least I didn’t think so.

My feeling is that at worst its not much of a difference.


i only used premium gas in the Macan. I would think premium is at least $4 a gallon now, heck I paid 3.80 for regular for the loaner Ford gave me, at 20 mpg average using the Macan that‘s 20 cents a mile.

as for the MME getting 3.3, maybe, if you are using the MME’s calculation I wouldn't trust it as mine never changes, personally I think it’s wrong but even if your close using DCFC cost of 48 cents without discount and at 3 miles per kw the cost is .16 per miles.

Still cheaper than gas In my scenario but not by much.

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[Mach1E]

@Mach1E and @kennethjk : no one is saying you would cross shop. That’s irrelevant. We are comparing capability and efficiency of gas vs electric and the implications on the energy portion of operating costs. The size of the vehicles I listed are within an inch from one another. The acceleration is almost identical. That’s what matters. And it’s a much closer comparison than the mache with a Camry hybrid like some suggested. Also, the 3.3 efficiency is for a premium, not a gtpe. I don’t drive a gtpe and have no sense of its efficiency. But I drive a premium and do so in harsh weather conditions. Last time I checked lifetime efficiency it was in that 3.3 range.

Again, the statement that cost of DCFC is equivalent to gas is lazy and wrong. It is way cheaper than gas.

Except that, as almost everyone here has concluded, the cost to use DCFC to fill up is equivalent to gas.

Even if we use your summer numbers vs some of the LEAST efficient ICE vehicles (24 mpg highway) it isn’t far off.

Winter? It’s equivalent again.

But go to even the average midsize SUV (30 mpg vs summer efficiency) and its equivalent.

And GT…….its equivalent.

Lazy and wrong you say? Pretty much the ONLY scenario you can come up with is comparing the MOST efficient Mach E in the summer to the LEAST efficient SUVs…….

You are completely cherry picking data. ?‍

 

[GreaseMonkey]

Except that, as almost everyone here has concluded, the cost to use DCFC to fill up is equivalent to gas.

Even if we use your summer numbers vs some of the LEAST efficient ICE vehicles (24 mpg highway) it isn’t far off.

Winter? It’s equivalent again.

But go to even the average midsize SUV (30 mpg vs summer efficiency) and its equivalent.

And GT…….its equivalent.

Lazy and wrong you say? Pretty much the ONLY scenario you can come up with is comparing the MOST efficient Mach E in the summer to the LEAST efficient SUVs…….

You are completely cherry picking data. ?‍

You are totally wrong. I don’t have time to provide actual data and compete rebuttal of your opinion now, but will do later today. If you want to analyze, do it right instead of starting with a conclusion and force fitting your data to match it.

 

[Mach1E]

You are totally wrong. I don’t have time to provide actual data and compete rebuttal of your opinion now, but will do later today. If you want to analyze, do it right instead of starting with a conclusion and force fitting your data to match it.

That’s not what happened. Dozens here have posted their own experiences (efficiency, cost to charge, and fuel economy).

Myself included. And DC charging was cheaper for me. Because I live in sunny warm Florida and drove a gas hog.

But for many others? DC more expensive.

You are the one forcing data by only comparing the most efficient scenario for the Mach E to crap efficiency SUV using premium fuel.

Bottom line? There are tons of real world scenarios where it’s gonna be cheaper to take the gas car. Winter is one of them.

If you live in California and would drive a Suburban? Different story.

 

[Otto klub]

Break it down into cost per mile. Like Ken did above. It isn't difficult.
Edit to add. Ken i consider the difference between .16 and .20 cents to be a very big difference. Thats just me.

 

[luckie]

Tesla has stated $60,000.00 purchase price for one Supercharger stall.

So that is a $60k per charger estimate. Interesting. That lines up pretty(?) well with the $250-400k bids Tesla is giving to US cities to install a V4 SuperCharger station, which is far lower than the $1M bids other vendors are submitting. I guess they might just do a four-charger station(?) although I have never seen a four-charger SuperCharger Station.

 

[Blue highway]

It still seems to me that DCFC providers are overcharging.

... most are not even covering their costs. DCFC has to cost more than it does now and it needs to have a higher level of utilization for it to be a viable business.

see this from McKinsey: https://www.mckinsey.com/features/m...g-stations-be-profitable-in-the-united-states

 

[kennethjk]

Break it down into cost per mile. Like Ken did above. It isn't difficult.
Edit to add. Ken i consider the difference between .16 and .20 cents to be a very big difference. Thats just me.

You’re not wrong meaning you’re right- my Macan is on the lower side of MPG, my wife’s X3 get closer to 23 on average and we only use regular gas, if regular is 3.50 and at 23 mpg, average is .15 and therefore a break even With DCFC. the mpg of the X3 on the highway is 27 making the cost .13 per mile. All these things are so variable.

if you take a 1,000 mile trip the savings at .04 is $40.

so from my way of thinking it’s pretty close and that’s what I tell people. If you’re doing a trip and DCFC the entire time the cost compared to gas is almost the same, give or take A bit.

 

[Blue highway]

Utilities are notorious for cramming bills. There's a solid 4 nonsense fees on mine so they can claim their rates are lower than they actually are. The nonsense fees increase actual cost ~25%

huh? It's governments cram bills with junk taxes...

 

[Blue highway]

Which is why I don’t understand how people think that expanding the DCFC network is somehow the solution to getting everyone to drive an EV.

DCFC is expensive and inconvenient.

In an ideal world, you only lvl 3 charge if you don’t have another choice.

Charge at home, work and destinations are the cheap and convenient solutions.

expanding DCFC is "the" answer only behind lower cost EV cars. I live in Oregon, a very EV friendly state, and yet there are places in SE Oregon that are unreachable by my MME because there is no charging available.

• Driving across Indiana is surprisingly difficult.
• Driving across the UP of Michigan is impossible.
• Driving across Kentucky is a challenge.
• In these and LOTS of other places, you are one dead charge station away from not being able to complete your trip on a US interstate.

More charging is "the" answer.

 

[Shaggyrn]

I have ran many numbers and on road trips it is cheaper to drive an ICE than the Mach E. I have seen anywhere from $.028 - $0.68 for a KW at a DCFC. When on a road trip I am driving highway speeds and do not get anywhere near a 3.3 M/KW more like 2.0 to 2.7 depending on wind direction. Do I take my my Mach e on roads trips yeah I do. If I was concerned about cost I would have bought a cheap 28 thousand dollar car that got 35 miles to the gallon.
Now if your talking driving around town I average 3 in the summer and you can not touch the cost of electric at home $0.08 a KW. Leaving the house each morning with a 90% full "tank"

 

[AKgrampy]

I just drove 350 miles to in my Expedition. It got slightly over 20 miles per gallon so at $3.20 per gallon that is 16 cents per mile. My Mach is only getting about 1.8 in winter (3 in summer) so at 60 cents per kWh it would have cost me 33 cents per mile and in summer 20 cents. So always cheaper to drive ICE in this scenario. The issue, as I posted earlier, are the what ifs of various DCFC prices, gas prices, and mpg ratings of various vehicles. So anybody can support their own position by just using the numbers that support them. I do believe we can all agree though that it is always cheaper with home charging (at least if off peak.) I would have taken the Expedition this weekend no matter what as it was -30F and I just don’t take the Mach out below -20!

 

[Space_Pony]

expanding DCFC is "the" answer only behind lower cost EV cars. I live in Oregon, a very EV friendly state, and yet there are places in SE Oregon that are unreachable by my MME because there is no charging available.

• Driving across Indiana is surprisingly difficult.
• Driving across the UP of Michigan is impossible.
• Driving across Kentucky is a challenge.
• In these and LOTS of other places, you are one dead charge station away from not being able to complete your trip on a US interstate.

More charging is "the" answer.

I would say that more "affordable charging" is the answer. When an individual is contemplating the purchase of a new car and crunches the numbers of DCFC charging and figures out that he won't save any money if he needs to do a lot of DCFC charging, he will stay with ICE.
I don't need to charge at DCFC stations much and don't look forward to the day that my free EA charging is gone. I'm the tightwad that uses gasbuddy and will use Plugshare to shop for electricity.

 

[Mach1E]

expanding DCFC is "the" answer only behind lower cost EV cars. I live in Oregon, a very EV friendly state, and yet there are places in SE Oregon that are unreachable by my MME because there is no charging available.

• Driving across Indiana is surprisingly difficult.
• Driving across the UP of Michigan is impossible.
• Driving across Kentucky is a challenge.
• In these and LOTS of other places, you are one dead charge station away from not being able to complete your trip on a US interstate.

More charging is "the" answer.

Agreed we need to expand the network.

But like you mentioned, it needs to be expanded far from your house so you can road trip.

Not next to your house for regular charging. Home charging should be lvl 2 not DC was my point.

 

[GreaseMonkey]

That’s not what happened. Dozens here have posted their own experiences (efficiency, cost to charge, and fuel economy).

Myself included. And DC charging was cheaper for me. Because I live in sunny warm Florida and drove a gas hog.

But for many others? DC more expensive.

You are the one forcing data by only comparing the most efficient scenario for the Mach E to crap efficiency SUV using premium fuel.

Bottom line? There are tons of real world scenarios where it’s gonna be cheaper to take the gas car. Winter is one of them.

If you live in California and would drive a Suburban? Different story.

Dozens of people coming up with comparisons of Mach-Es to Camrys is dumb… no matter how many people say it, it is still dumb. Most people don’t know how to do math as this forum provides evidence of on a daily basis.

You have to compare apples to apples on factors that impact efficiency. Size and acceleration being (by far) the top two.

A premium Mach-E is the same size as an Audi Q5 55 and has slightly better acceleration (4.8 vs 5.0). That is an apples to apples comparison. It is not the only valid comparison, but it is surely valid.

You don’t want to use my efficiency data? Fine. Let’s use the EPA ratings for both vehicles (similar criteria and objective):

Mach-E premium: 3.18 miles / kWh (let’s do the fucking math: 290 miles range / 91 kWh battery).

Audi Q5 55 TFSI: 25 mpg combined (look it up: in google we trust). 120 years of German engineering and that’s all they can muster.

The benchmark cost of DCFC is EA which is $0.36/ kWh plus a $7/ month plan. You want to go find a more expensive one? Go right ahead. But that doesn’t make it valid.

So per mile cost of charging the Mach-E for an average person driving 15k miles per year is $0.113 (for kilowatt hours as a variable cost) plus $0.016 (for the EA monthly plan, over a 15k miles per year). Grand total is: $0.129/ mile. But my girlfriend once charged without subscribing to a plan. Well, you need a smarter girlfriend.

So for the Audi to be cheaper to operate than the Mach-E, the driver needs to buy premium unleaded gas below $3.225/ gallon.

Here’s the weekly historical national average premium gas prices in this great nation based on the EPA data (not a blue state, purple as it gets):

Please point me to any week over the last two years when the average national price of premium unleaded has ever been at or below $3.225.

The answer is never. Not once. And it’s not even close.In fact I see more fours than threes.

Without whipping out a spreadsheet, I’d tell you filling up an Audi is 25% more expensive than fast charging a premium Mach-E.

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